The K-Drama Meta.
I HAVE EXAMS ON IN A FEW, WOULD YOU BELIEVE. PRAYER CIRCLE FOR MY CONTINUED ACADEMIC EXISTENCE. And in the meanwhile, I don't even believe this myself.
Female (Second) Leads: Narratives vs. Tropes:
[In Defence Of] Coffee House.
When do I suggest reading this:
- If you're not planning on watching Coffee House , because you should. I think it's ( Read more... )
Female (Second) Leads: Narratives vs. Tropes:
[In Defence Of] Coffee House.
When do I suggest reading this:
- If you're not planning on watching Coffee House , because you should. I think it's ( Read more... )
- I WILL FINISH DREAM HIGH SOMETIME. It's good to have something worth watching in the wings, since I'm running though dramas like...Usain Bolt????
- DUDE, YOU KNOW I AGREE ON BOF.
Basically my theory is that the PD was either in awe of KHJ's face (which, considering there was an entire, completely random scene, just dedicated to how beautiful he was- the one in which Jan-di's mom falls in his arms on the stairs and spends the rest of the day in a daze, LIKE, WHAT EVEN????- doesn't sound entirely far-fetched.) OR Ji Hoo/Jan Di was endgame OTP but they feared fan-backlash because again, people went in knowing what to expect, and didn't like having their expectations messed with.
LOL, post BOF, being totally new to dramaland, I was super-afraid of getting Second Lead Syndrome and being equally destroyed in every show that ever had a second lead and so didn't watch quite a lot of stuff. But it's only later I realized that BOF was legit an anomaly, there is no second lead ship that plays the piano or nurses each other or does piggyback rides, that's pretty much ALWAYS an OTP thing. I have yet to come across any secondary ship that comes even close to rivaling JH/JD in their narrative development and space. Also, because there were so many moments where the narrative could have turned, when it seems JD was reciprocating (HANDKERCHIEF? SOULMATE?) while that practically never happens with a secondary ship.
AND NHF FOR THE STARS-AND-MOON NECKLACE SHENANIGANS RE: JP/JD OBV. Although lmao@their star cross'dness being all symbolic-like.
(I will apparently never not have too much to say about BOF, alas.)
- I AM GLAD YOU THINK MY ARGUMENT IS COMPELLING. I AM ACTUALLY SUPER EXCITED TO SEE WHETHER YOU'LL AGREE OR DISAGREE AND WHETHER THIS WILL MAKE SENSE EVEN POST-WATCHING CH. Heh.
- RE: I HAVE NOW SEEEEEEN EPISODE THIRTEEEEEEN. COME AT ME, BRO. YOU CAN VOMIT FEELS HERE OR ON YOUR JOURNAL OR ANYWHERE, JUST GIVE ME. (crying@ur mom's flawless tastes tbqh. what is with the women in your fam tho, even your grandmother was a Katherine stan. Y'ALL DESERVE AN AWARD.)
- Much thankings D:
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Usain Bolt????
???????
Basically my theory is that the PD was either in awe of KHJ's face
As good an explanation as any.
SPEAKING OF SECOND LEADS. I am so conflicted over Heirs so just let me scream at you for a bit. I haven't seen ep 14 yet so these thoughts are not definitive, but mostly fresh and unfiltered: I am genuinely feeling your distrust about the portrayal of Tan now. I think ep 13 was the first time I actually felt like he was being portrayed as a ~hero?? E.g. ~Saving Ye Sol (?) from the evil ~Rachel, declaring he needs to ~make up for the past, etc. etc. Which I do not buy at all, because he is yet to show, like, ACTUAL REMORSE about the things he did in the past. (And he has shown ZERO remorse over what he did to YD just a few eps ago, since he seems to think that was completely justified on account of him being the good guy and YD being the bad one, &c. &c.)
Plus, this was the first episode where I feel like ES/Tan were portrayed unambiguously as a romance? Which, again, I do not buy since the last however many episodes consisted of him stalking/physically intruding/manipulating/gaslighting her into LIKING HIM BACK OR ELSE. Like. "I'm sorry for saying no before" ? ? ? ? ? WHAT ARE YOU DOING. And now apparently their main source of conflict comprises of YD being the ~villain trying to ~tear them apart. Which, NHFT.
THAT BEING SAID... I'm actually pretty into what they're doing with YD as a character in his own right. I mean, the reason I always appreciated him as a character is because the show never pulled its punches or painted him as a romantic hero. So my feelings there really haven't changed. My main issue right now is that the show is encouraging you to juxtapose him with Tan. Which does not work??? Because Tan is equally terrible and just has zero self-awareness about it?????? But disregarding that, YD's arc itself is kind of brilliant: He is a terrible person who's being totally broken down and having to build himself back up, sans an idealised love interest to ~redeem him. 100% HFT. (It occurs to me that ES/YD is basically the deconstruction of ES/Tan -- it's the privileged Mean Boy who wants to reinvent himself with this redemption fantasy woman!! Only with YD, ES is written as absolutely refusing to indulge that fantasy, which is awesomely subversive tbh.)
The thing is, I am really uncertain atm as to whether I am supposed to be viewing everything in this way. Like, it is just DOES NOT COMPUTE that we're even supposed to root for/sympathise with Tan at all. (Meanwhile, it has become physically impossible for me not to sympathise with YD because KWB has fucked me up smh smh smh.) IDK IDK CHINGU, TALK ME DOWN. WHAT SAY YOU???
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I'll probably start some time this weekend, mmmkay?
YES, SO EXCITED ALREADY \o/
???????
Since I was talking about running, I thought I might as well go all out *kanyeshrug*
As good an explanation as any.
You know that was it.
DUDE, ALL YOUR Heirs THOUGHTS ARE MINE TOO, OBV. Because idk, I kind of have no doubt now that it's being played straight. In fact, this is the kind of problem that I feel these kind of narratives almost inevitably tend to face, unless the point of them is a deconstruction. Because it's very easy to go from self-awareness right into romantic territory, so that once the romance is played straight, most people don't even deem it necessary to go back and address the problematics that had been raised earlier, you know?
I think Tan is genuinely an odd character-construction because I feel like I'm supposed to see growth on many fronts, but I...really don't? Mostly because I don't see where he started from, to actually be able to judge the ~growth. It also has something to do with the fact that all of Tan's near-mythical bullying is just mentioned in passing, instead of actually being shown on-screen, and I feel that the show vs. tell thing always changes the impact that any kind of information has on an audience. Like, we keep hearing about how Tan practically made all the ugly rules by which Empire High runs now, but even Young!Tan doesn't seem like the kind of person to be involved in all that he was supposedly involved in?? He actually legitimately seems like a nice guy whose only ~mistake was re: not telling Young Do about his mom (and that too for only ~five minutes.) ALL we've seen Young!Tan do till now is be nice to young!Young Do (lol), with Y!YD pushing him away at all turns. idk, it seems a very disconnected portrayal to me.
And then there's Tan NOW, who is clearly a manipulative, abusive, selfish, domineering bastard (the sheer number of times he's "stopped" Eun Sang from doing something or commanded her to "go" or "walk away", just.) Except that he is apparently really courageous because he's willing to change from who he was?? (~unlike YD who is "stuck" in his self-loathing and unable to ~move on.) I mean, it isn't even addressed that the only real reason he revealed his illegitimacy was because he wanted to break the engagement and date the girl he wants to date, not because he ~couldn't ~bear to see his mother treated the way she was, considering this is the same guy who couldn't be bothered to answer his mother's call for practically three years that he was away. (He's so fascinating though, with his ability to put the blame for all his actions on other people, "you would cry if I called", "Young Do is a certain way and I'm just retaliating".)
But it's true, he's shown zero remorse for the way he is. I keep feeling that he's strong-armed his way into ES's affections and now maintains his heroism by constructing himself as at least ~better than the other guy who likes her i.e. Young Do. Like, YD is so out there that KT automatically gets to be the hero, to challenge the social structure as he likes, since he's the one who created it. And honestly, it's never really mentioned that he HAS THE POWER TO DO SO. Because people don't KNOW about his illegitimacy as yet, so in school, he's still one of the royalty. It doesn't take an enormous amount of courage on his part to do what he does, but it's suitably impressive for ES who now does view him in a rather heroic light (I believe this post E14 for sure.)
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In fact, this is the kind of problem that I feel these kind of narratives almost inevitably tend to face, unless the point of them is a deconstruction. Because it's very easy to go from self-awareness right into romantic territory, so that once the romance is played straight, most people don't even deem it necessary to go back and address the problematics that had been raised earlier, you know?
I fear you may be right. SUCH A SHAME. Like, this show is near perfect to me except for this one GAPING FLAW IN ITS CENTRAL ROMANCE. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
young!Young Do (lol)
lol.
Yeah, I wash my hands of both those flashbacks and Tan's character tbh. Again, such a shame the show's main flaw surrounds its MAIN CHARACTER.
I mean, it isn't even addressed that the only real reason he revealed his illegitimacy was because he wanted to break the engagement and date the girl he wants to date, not because he ~couldn't ~bear to see his mother treated the way she was, considering this is the same guy who couldn't be bothered to answer his mother's call for practically three years that he was away.
SERIOUSLY. WHAT THE FUCK. It is inconceivable that he is supposed to be regarded as the hero.
Now that I've seen ep 14 I absolutely agree that ES views Tan in a heroic light. Which explains why she can't hold him accountable for his douchebaggery. It's pretty sad, really. ES just hasn't known much kindness from people more powerful than her at all, ergo she feels beholden to Tan for the fantasy of "safety". I mean, she's so LUCKY to have someone like him looking out for her, right? Ugh.
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I fear you may be right. SUCH A SHAME. Like, this show is near perfect to me except for this one GAPING FLAW IN ITS CENTRAL ROMANCE. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
AND the romance is probably going to ~heat ~up because we're entering the final stretch. I MEAN. JUST. WHY.
Yeah, I wash my hands of both those flashbacks and Tan's character tbh. Again, such a shame the show's main flaw surrounds its MAIN CHARACTER.
I cannot understand the point of those flashbacks tbqh. Like, I know we're supposed to see how the YD/KT relationship soured and what they had been like before, but we basically see them behave almost exactly as they do now, except KT seems even less culpable and YD basically responsible for all their ~relationship troubles. Each flashback basically depicts y!YD being ~mean to y!KT because of his mom, post having found out about his own dad...which is pretty much their dynamic now. (Also, which is completely different from how everyone keeps picking on YD about always having been in love with KT. LIKE WHY ARE WE GETTING THESE CONFLICTING HISTORIES, IT MAKES NO SENSE???)
ES just hasn't known much kindness from people more powerful than her at all, ergo she feels beholden to Tan for the fantasy of "safety". I mean, she's so LUCKY to have someone like him looking out for her, right? Ugh.
AND HE SO WONDERFULLY MAINTAINS THAT FANTASY. He's always been all "stand behind me, nothing will hurt you" and forever ready to fight her battles for her, y'know? Confronting Rachel, dealing with Young Do, etc. etc. And he conflates all of that. Unlike Young Do, Tan always obscures his motive so his beef against YD is always made out to be about "protecting her" as much as his confrontations with "Rachel". THE MAN IS SO FASCINATING, I JUST WISH I WAS CONVINCED THAT THIS IS THE GUY I'M SUPPOSED TO BE WATCHING, BECAUSE I WOULD SO BE HERE FOR THIS GUY.
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DUDE, SAME. Like, I've been viewing their interactions as straight-up romantic for a while now, so Ep13/14 just solidified that belief. IDK, it seems they're constructing a parallel around the fact that KT and ES are both ~social ~outcasts because of their family situation, which, WATCH ME LMAO@THAT.
AND TA ON ALL YOUR YOUNG DO THOUGHTS. Like, I think he's one of those people who would like to be redeemed by the ~love of a good woman. As in he would like to have a reason to change, to move past hating himself, so how amazing is it that his arc centers around him not having any reason? ES, by now, has outright rejected him, so all his actions, as much as he tries to make her the catalyst for them, are not guided purely by that consideration. Besides what's fascinating about him is that he always ascribes the worst possible motives to himself, no matter what his action (and oftentimes both, the characters and the audience, buy into it at face-value). Like, even when he's doing something like protecting Tan's birth secret, acc to him it's because he wants to "maintain leverage", although it's obvious to everyone that that's not it at all, because he doesn't reveal it, even when he's lost that leverage. Or that his motive for the whole broadcast shenanigans was literally getting to see ES, but he makes it about "Tan protecting her" and how he'll always be against Tan protecting her. In this regard, I think Rachel is super-astute, because she tends to see through him.
And what I absolutely ADORE about the ES/YD dynamic is that it's honest in every which way i.e. ES doesn't pretend to not be scared of him when she is, but she also doesn't pretend to be scared of him when she isn't, even if it’s post something like the broadcast room shenanigans. Their interactions are so regular when they're not fraught with tension that it's brilliant. (Also, sorry not sorry, he’s so ridic nervous around ES most of the time that it is just adorable, okay. He can’t even look at her straight when he’s being sincere.)
Also, re: KT/YD: the divide between the YD/KT attitude and the way the actors are playing it is SO CLEAR that it’s hard not to read into it. Like, YD after the confrontations that he initiates, is left drained and sitting alone, while KT is still all playful and flirty with ES. It literally doesn’t affect him at all. He feels nothing for the various incidents apart from that it’s Young Do’s fault that he’s ~unable to change as KT apparently ~has. That is legit his take on all these scenes. While YD is mostly self-aware, knows what he’s doing and still can’t stop himself.
And : (It occurs to me that ES/YD is basically the deconstruction of ES/Tan -- it's the privileged Mean Boy who wants to reinvent himself with this redemption fantasy woman!! Only with YD, ES is written as absolutely refusing to indulge that fantasy, which is awesomely subversive tbh.)
GIVE ME A HELL YES ON THAT? I hadn’t thought of this in these exact terms, BUT YES, EXACTLY THIS.
Like, it is just DOES NOT COMPUTE that we're even supposed to root for/sympathise with Tan at all.
The problem that I see is that this series is apparently 20 eps long and we’re going to into the shareholder/inheritance war soon, so I don’t really think that KT’s ~development is a priority, or the show even thinks that he needs a particular kind of personality development, but just that he needs to fight for his place in his life and mature from the high school kid he is. :s I don’t think his relationship with Eun Sang is being considered in a light beyond all that they’ll have to fight to make it. IDK IDK, I HOPE I AM WRONG????
ugh, I agree on KWB messing up any and all equations/unbiasedness obv. Like, watch Ep-14, HOW CAN ANYONE SIT THROUGH IT AND NOT FEEL FOR HIM??? He just has the best expressions okay, I don't even have a choice because he is responsible for how I act. /I am KT
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L M A O, RIGHT? NHF THIS "US AGAINST THE WORLD" NONSENSE. Seriously, this analogy does not fly. KT might have oodles of man pain about his sad life but he is still ten thousand times more privileged than ES. And he's nudged ES into a state of mind where she believes he's ALL the support system she has? (Since she has to spend a lot of time/energy looking out for her mother.)
Actually, you know what, I think this literally explains everything about their relationship. ES has had to be independent and selfless and carry more weight on her shoulders than other people her age all her life. And she's resented the hell out of it, longed for an escape, ergo KT's "white knight" routine and domineering tendencies to take the decision out of her hands is perversely appealing??? /o\ /o\ /o\ (Not that she'll tolerate ALL the decisions being taken out of her hands. She'll still fight for enough agency so that she can feel okay about herself.)
Besides what's fascinating about him is that he always ascribes the worst possible motives to himself, no matter what his action (and oftentimes both, the characters and the audience, buy into it at face-value). Like, even when he's doing something like protecting Tan's birth secret, acc to him it's because he wants to "maintain leverage", although it's obvious to everyone that that's not it at all, because he doesn't reveal it, even when he's lost that leverage.
DUDE, VIOLENT AGREEMENT WITH ALL YOUR YD EMOTIONS. ESPECIALLY THE ABOVE. The most fascinating thing about him is his constant image control. Since he fears being vulnerable above anything else, he has to put all of his energy into the OTT moustache-twirling charade.
(Also, sorry not sorry, he’s so ridic nervous around ES most of the time that it is just adorable, okay. He can’t even look at her straight when he’s being sincere.)
IKR. SO PATHETIC. ALSO, CAN WE DISCUSS THE SOFT UN-GELLED HAIR OF CHARACTER CHANGE, LOL.
+900000 to the ES/YD emotional honesty. And continuing with what you said about YD initially being attracted to ES because of her vulnerability, I am pretty sure this is becoming true of ES too?? I wouldn't go so far as to say she's reciprocating but goddamn every time YD appears vulnerable she is SO INTRIGUED?
Also, re: KT/YD: the divide between the YD/KT attitude and the way the actors are playing it is SO CLEAR that it’s hard not to read into it. Like, YD after the confrontations that he initiates, is left drained and sitting alone, while KT is still all playful and flirty with ES. It literally doesn’t affect him at all.
UGHHHHHHHH, THIS?? It causes me so much angst because at the end of the day I have this urge for them to hug it out. But I have seen very little evidence that KT gives two fucks about YD. With the exception of him intervening when professor woman threatened to get YD's father involved, which, ironic.
I don’t really think that KT’s ~development is a priority, or the show even thinks that he needs a particular kind of personality development, but just that he needs to fight for his place in his life and mature from the high school kid he is. :s
#nicolas cage reaction image
Kim Woo Bin is a dick, the end.
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IT’S TRUE, RIGHT? LIKE THAT IS HOW IT SEEMS SHE FEELS? Which is so bizarre considering Chan Young and Bona (her friend with the “pretty heart”. I DIED WHEN THAT HAPPENED AGAIN. HOW ARE THEY FOREVER THE MOST ADORABLE? AND BONA IS EUN SANG’S SAVIOR. MY BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN <3). I mean, she seems really isolated, and KT initially brought her into that isolation with his New Money lie and the effort to maintain it. Also mainly because KT always makes it sound like he’s giving up so much for her, that she should at least be ~courageous ~enough to be with him in return. But, I think, post the “welfare student” reveal, I’m REALLY interested to see whether this changes, because she no longer has anything to hide and may not be so isolated.
To take the decision out of her hands is perversely appealing???
OH MY GOD, Y E S. DUDE, I THINK THAT’S TOTALLY IT?? That’s such an important part of her characterization, that she resents being in the position she is in now. She’s never had that “I have too much pride and must do everything myself because such is the lot life has dealt me”, considering that right when we met her, she was rushing off to the States to meet her unnie because how dare unnie just run away and live off their support and refuse to support them in return. She does everything that she can to get by, but she feels forced to, and clearly longs to get away. And when she met Tan, she was almost certain that she was never going to be able to; she had practically no dream, no ambition left. In which case, you’re right, I can totally understand the appeal of Tan’s “I’ll protect you”/“I’ll take care of everything as long as you’re with me” for her. Even when she knows it’s illusory, he provides an out, gives her what she believes is worth fighting for, because maybe if she fights just enough, things will improve (and this unlike before, when, even if she fought, she knew nothing would change.)
The most fascinating thing about him is his constant image control.
HE IS TOTALLY AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KID AS ES SO WISELY PUT IT. And it’s hilarious because he’s losing face left, right and center now, but he’d still rather be the bad guy than be categorized as “good” or “changed”.
THE SOFT UN-GELLED HAIR OF CHARACTER CHANGE, LOL.
L M A O. I KNEW YOU WOULD CATCH THAT. HI-FIVE FOR SIMPATICO-NESS, BASICALLY. NOT TO MENTION THAT IN ANY SCENE THAT THE TWO OF THEM ARE TOGETHER, HE WILL SPEND 99.99% OF THE TIME FOCUSED ENTIRELY ON HER (including situations where KT is holding a chair over his head). UNLESS SHE’S LOOKING AT HIM, IN WHICH CASE HE WILL SPENT 100% OF HIS TIME LOOKING AT THE GROUND.
But goddamn every time YD appears vulnerable she is SO INTRIGUED?
EXACTLY. And she can now distinguish between when he’s really scary and when it’s sheer bravado, which is progress, I guess???? Like, honestly, their interactions this episode were so interesting to me (EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE SADLY LACKING BECAUSE OF ALL THE KT/ES TOGETHERNESS). I can’t even with their post-broadcast-room scenes. The last they’d met before that had been with her pinned against the door, and she just walks in the studio when he’s sitting alone, and can read him easily enough to know that she can casually tell him why she’s there and offer him the band-aid. (AND HE REFUSES, BUT THEN WAITS FOR HER TO ASK HER AGAIN- probs because he realized that’s the max he’s ever going to get, a gesture that she makes first.)
Also, what I find ridic fascinating about this whole vulnerability deal in their dynamic is that they never use against the other where the other is really vulnerable. They have an odd sort of protectiveness re: the others’ weaknesses where they really can’t do anything because they’re not so much as friends, but sometimes, maybe they’d like to (like YD’s “let’s eat noodles now”, or ES’s band-aid peace offering or making him feel better about accidentally having revealed her work-place.)
But I have seen very little evidence that KT gives two fucks about YD.
Truth. I think it’s mostly YD whose life entirely revolves around KT who couldn’t care less.
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I K R !!!!!!!!! HOW MANY TIMES HAS EUN SANG CALLED BO NA PRETTY NOW????!!!!
I think Eun Sang perceives Tan as being her main source of support because he clearly has way more power than any of her friends. Chan Young and Bo Na are WAY better friends, but they can't protect her like Tan can. :| I'm not sure how much that'll change tbh, since if anything he was confirmed to her as being her saviour at the end of ep 14. /o\ /o\ /o\
Actually, the only sort of change I can see happening is with Young Do. Since Eun Sang seems to be (understandably) attracted to people who can protect her, I am very very curious to see how her feelings towards him will develop now that he's officially no longer a threat and is openly looking out for her. Especially since unlike Tan, he is not DEMANDING SHE LIKE HIM BACK OR ELSE? (LOL, HOW is that this is the relationship in which her agency is less compromised, I JUST.)
In which case, you’re right, I can totally understand the appeal of Tan’s “I’ll protect you”/“I’ll take care of everything as long as you’re with me” for her.
Yeah, ITA with your feeling that Tan basically just wore Eun Sang down. And I think that is kind of the appeal to her. It's the flattery thing. If he keeps trying so persistently then he MUST REALLY be invested in her, right? And no one's ever really fought for her like that. ALSO, I think it's really important/interesting that she wants to protect him too? It's significant that the first real move she made towards him was that hug on the street when he was looking all broken and lost. So, it's a mixture of both the protector thing + the vulnerability thing. Though, I think her wanting to protect him is mainly derived from guilt/obligation. He's put in SO MUCH EFFORT ~FOR HER so she feels compelled to return it.
I KNEW YOU WOULD CATCH THAT. HI-FIVE FOR SIMPATICO-NESS, BASICALLY.
DUDE. HOW COULD ONE NOT.
BUT OMG, CAN WE DISCUSS WHAT A MOTHERFUCKING PSYCHO TAN IS?? WHO PICKS UP A CHAIR TO BEAT UP THEIR FORMER BFF WITH?? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, MAN.
The last they’d met before that had been with her pinned against the door, and she just walks in the studio when he’s sitting alone, and can read him easily enough to know that she can casually tell him why she’s there and offer him the band-aid.
I wonder if Eun Sang judging that Young Do wasn't a threat at that point was because she literally just stopped her bf from beating him to death with a chair. LOL. I mean, I think she can sense that Young Do holds less power in that relationship and that the confrontation totally deflated him. EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID about them not using each other's vulnerability against each other. I'M TELLING YOU, THEY NEED TO BE BFFS STAT.
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I think Eun Sang perceives Tan as being her main source of support
Oh man, so DNW that Stockholm Syndome-ish dynamic if they're not going full-on wrong!ship with it. But I like the construction, that he has this ability to make everything that he does so appealing. He uses his power and lack of power almost equally to get emotional leverage. Like, in the school scenario where he has actual hard power, he plays it as going against the system. While, in private, he's all about his illegitimacy and his brother hating him and how he isn't who he used to be. So basically, the whole thing DOES come across as Him Against The System, even though it actually isn't- at least at this point. Man, he could be such a perfect character.
Now that he’s looking out for her.
WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME HOPE FOR THINGS. Because I SO WANT TO SEE THIS. Also, it can easily develop from the dynamic they currently share; like they somehow eased from confrontation into semi-comfort and semi-understanding and I think, in some weird way, Eun Sang trusts him to not go against his type or his words. Like, he'll make all the worst decisions, but he'll never genuinely go there, he isn't exactly a ticking bomb in that way. And she's already rejected him, so they've already reached ground level on that regard.
Besides, and this is something I like, Young Do is very, very aware of the fact that things she does leads to him feeling a certain way and not that she's making him feel a certain way, if that makes sense. Like, you often get these dynamics (and this happens a lot with kdrama OTPs also) that the guy sort of blames his emotional state on the girl, as in she's making him feel a certain way. It's not something that I'm "OMG NOOOOOOOOO" about, because I can understand that's just a POV, but here, it's interesting that he constantly lets her know that he's interpreting her actions in a particular light, while being aware that she doesn't mean it ~that ~way. Like, it'd be so easy for him to say that, knowing how he feels about her, her unexpected empathy re: him, whether it's with regards to his family or the bandaid incident, confuses him. But he absolutely accepts how she says she feels. Like, even with the "why are you always sleeping in the open like this, makes me want to protect you", the agency of his feelings is always on him, because he knows her actions aren't geared towards arousing these feelings in him. IDK IF THAT MADE SENSE, BUT I LOVE IT.
It's the flattery thing.
Y E S to the flattery thing, Secret Garden explored this much more openly. Besides is in so much power in a group that she's completely disempowered in herself. & as you said, he can be vulnerable and his family situation makes the glamor seem that much shallow, and his life that much more grounded and closer to ~her reality. Like, as we've seen, pretty much all the chaebol families suck, and the parents are awful, but Eun Sang doesn't know this about the others. All she probably sees re: them is the shine, while Tan seems different because she knows his secrets, so he seems special that way, more vulnerable, one of "them" but not really.
BUT OMG, CAN WE DISCUSS WHAT A MOTHERFUCKING PSYCHO TAN IS
DUDE, LIKE. THIS IS WHAT HE DID LAST TIME TOO, WHEN HE JUST GOT OFF THE ROOF AND STALKED TO YOUNG DO AND PUNCHED HIM.THE GUY HAS SUCH SEVERE ISSUES, I CAN'T. And lol forever@YD just standing there, staring at ES holding Tan back than actually making a move to protect himself. NO WONDER THEY WERE LOVERS BFFS.
And that the confrontation totally deflated him.
guh, YES. And I think this is one of the things that fascinates her about him, that he's so vulnerable re: Tan, when ostensibly it seems that the dynamic should actually be the other way round.
BUT UGH, IF THEY ARE NOT (AT LEAST) BFFS BY THE END OF THIS, I SHALL KILL EVERYTHING WITH FIRE.
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I wonder if this is part of the appeal for Eun Sang?? (LISTEN, I AM CONSTANTLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE SEES IN HIM, OKAY.) It's no coincidence that the more Tan breaks away from the social system, the more inclined she is to be with him. Since the upstairs/downstairs thing was the main reason she didn't want to get involved with him in the beginning, the fact that they are seemingly more on equal footing now means she can "trust" him more??
So, basically, this:
All she probably sees re: them is the shine, while Tan seems different because she knows his secrets, so he seems special that way, more vulnerable, one of "them" but not really.
Plus, come to think of it, it was kind of inevitable since they've been in such close proximity ever since America. Because he's around ALL THE TIME (and the people in Eun Sang's life usually VERY MUCH ARE NOT), you can see how she might optimistically interpret that to mean he will be there for her.
WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME HOPE FOR THINGS.
BECAUSE MY PAIN MUST BE SHARED (AND ALSO BECAUSE THERE ARE 6 EPISODES LEFT AND THE TRIANGLE MUST SURELY CONTINUE)
Like, even with the "why are you always sleeping in the open like this, makes me want to protect you", the agency of his feelings is always on him, because he knows her actions aren't geared towards arousing these feelings in him. IDK IF THAT MADE SENSE, BUT I LOVE IT.
DUDE, I HAVE BEEN HAVING VERY COMPLICATED FEELINGS ABOUT THIS. ITA and I think that's consistent with Young Do's MO, since he's been raised in such a way that he values personal autonomy very highly. More than that, I think he is 100% aware of how he himself fucked everything up by initially making Eun Sang a pawn in his pissing match with Tan. He could have chosen authenticity over the image control but he made the wrong choice and now Eun Sang will never like him back and he really has no one to blame but himself. SELF-SABOTAGING FOOL.
I also think it's important that what Young Do really wants from Eun Sang is acknowledgment? Since he sees in her an opportunity to be authentic, there is nothing to be gained from MAKING HER do what he wants. I mean, he COULD do that, but it wouldn't be satisfying. Like he said, that'd ~break his heart.
DUDE, LIKE. THIS IS WHAT HE DID LAST TIME TOO, WHEN HE JUST GOT OFF THE ROOF AND STALKED TO YOUNG DO AND PUNCHED HIM.THE GUY HAS SUCH SEVERE ISSUES, I CAN'T.
It is hilar how Young Do is the one with the more self-restraint between them.
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And I think she feels like Tan is burdened by his status because she's seen the whole forced engagement, business ventures substituting familial love, brother turning against brother, him being thrown out of the house, etc. (while I think Tan is clearly a princess who has no measure of reality in his entitled existence.) And imo she sees a lot of these actions arising out of her relationship with him (which is a streak of vanity also, and he specifically addressed this in the last episode in the "it's not your fault" "not your fault either" bit) so it definitely increases her ~trust in him.
Because he's around ALL THE TIME (and the people in Eun Sang's life usually VERY MUCH ARE NOT), you can see how she might optimistically interpret that to mean he will be there for her.
EXACTLY, THIS. After her sister's abandonment I think it rankles even more with her, so she's tried pushing Tan away, but he seems to come closer every time she does it, so I think she's kind of exhausted her arsenal against him and feels like the worst that she could have done she's done, and there's nothing she can do to destroy it, now it will have to be the ~circumstances.
BECAUSE MY PAIN MUST BE SHARED (AND ALSO BECAUSE THERE ARE 6 EPISODES LEFT AND THE TRIANGLE MUST SURELY CONTINUE)
DUDE, I HOPE SO. BECAUSE IF AT SOME POINT THIS CONVERTS TO THE TAN-AND-EUN-SANG-SHOW, I WILL BE SO DISAPPOINT and bored.
He could have chosen authenticity over the image control but he made the wrong choice and now Eun Sang will never like him back and he really has no one to blame but himself.
GUH, YOU ARE MY DREAMCATCHER. /random. But, y e s. Which is why his list of ~demands from her are so tragically simple?? Like, all he really wants from her is to acknowledge his existence, pick up the phone, etc., and he basically can't do anything even if she doesn't do those things? [lmao, I wrote this before reading your next sentence and you basically said the same thing, simpatico \o/] And he doesn't push because he knows it's his fault. That initially it started off with Tan's interest in her and he never saw it escalating into anything beyond that (although he was def interested in her pre-Tan also, but I think he hasn't quite registered that), but now that it has, he irrevocably messed it up in the meanwhile.
Since he sees in her an opportunity to be authentic, there is nothing to be gained from MAKING HER do what he wants. I mean, he COULD do that, but it wouldn't be satisfying. Like he said, that'd ~break his heart.
YES. And also, I think he's also very, very aware that this is mostly about him, maybe even over Eun Sang. Which is why I feel it's different from all the other "I want it to be real"s (which are fairly common), because they're posited as something inherently special in That One Girl which makes the guy want to be real; while here, it's legit the difference in position, class, society and need for image control etc., and YD taking that as an opportunity to be real for himself, rather than Eun Sang. I think that's a far more honest position to take, because in most of these scenarios, it IS mostly about the guy even if he projects it onto the girl, except that it's very rarely acknowledged as such.
It is hilar how Young Do is the one with the more self-restraint between them.
lol, this show tho.
IT IS KIM WOO BIN FACE DAY AGAIN TOMORROW. ALL THE NOT-LOVE-IS-THE-MOMENT INTERACTIONS, GIVE ME.
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THIS SHIP WILL MYSTIFY ME FOREVER YO
Tan isn't pretty enough to be a princess tbh.
btw I was talking with Eleonore yesterday and she agreed with us that Tan proving his reliability is what made Eun Sang come around. His promising to ~protect her wasn't just an empty fantasy, because he's followed through. So to Eun Sang it's as though it's stopped being a fantasy and is becoming the ~real deal. Him starting to lose his status is also persuasive in this sense because that kind of thing doesn't happen in fantasies, right?
DUDE, I HOPE SO. BECAUSE IF AT SOME POINT THIS CONVERTS TO THE TAN-AND-EUN-SANG-SHOW, I WILL BE SO DISAPPOINT and bored.
LOL, IT PRETTY MUCH ALREADY IS THO?
GUH, YOU ARE MY DREAMCATCHER. /random.
YOU SAP
You forgot Tan tho. :p Eun Sang is totally a Tan proxy to Young Do lbr. Like, he wanted to hurt Tan by hurting Eun Sang. And now he's proxy-ing his need to be forgiven with her. Tan is totally the centre of this triangle. /o\ Makes me curious as to how exactly that bromance will be resolved ngl.
ALSO, it occurs to me that Young Do pinpointing "you have so many knights, makes me want to compete" as the moment he started having feelings for Eun Sang is very telling. It's not just that he has a protector complex but that her being ~spoken for and ~unattainable is what sealed his emotional investment. Because Young Do is most invested in people who are absent, obviously (his long lost mother, America!Tan...). HE IS ONLY WILLING TO GET ATTACHED TO THINGS THAT WILL CAUSE HIM LOSS, BASICALLY. HE ALWAYS CHOOSES THE SAD ENDINGS. MYUNG SOO IS THE WISEST OF THEM ALL.
I love that you call it Kim Woo Bin face day. Not that this isn't basically the crux of the show tho.
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LARGER FANDOM SEEMS TO LIKE THEM?? I'm beginning to think that larger fandom tends to like whatever the OTP is, regardless of any and all considerations. Like, THAT THOUGHT PROCESS IS SO BIZARRE TO ME. I have a far lower standard for liking non-OTPs than I do endgames. :O
lmao, you are correct, princesses with hair like that are disallowed as a species to exist.
LOL, Eleonore disagrees with us in general about Tan, though. (Although tbh, I wish I could also see it that way because it would make watching the show so much more enjoyable that way.) But I am in total agreement on that point, because Tan HAS been very persuasive about sticking around, even when it results in him being thrown out of the house, so that is definitely something that is throwing her for the loop, because if he had to leave, wouldn't he have left by now? And it's confusing the reality/fantasy dynamic that she initially had such a clear delineation of in her head, which is why her reactions are so markedly different, and she's given up struggling or discussing the inevitability of them falling apart.
LOL, IT PRETTY MUCH ALREADY IS THO?
BUT THE HORRORS OF IT BECOMING EVEN MORE SO.
And now he's proxy-ing his need to be forgiven with her.
DUDE, THIS IS TRUE. I TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT THAT. But yeah, Tan is totally the center here (so one-sided this triangle is, lmao, considering that ES probably cares more about YD than KT does.) But I hope the resolution is good, because they have a lot of issues between them.
Because Young Do is most invested in people who are absent, obviously.
^ THIS IS US AND OUR THOUGHT PROCESS /gpoy BECAUSE Y E S???
I haven't thought about that in those explicit terms, but that makes so much sense as a consistent part of his characterization. Like, I always thought of that dialogue as a general War Of The Dicks For The Girl In Question, but you're absolutely correct, that's not entirely what it is.
I think one of the oddest parts of YD's characterization is that he's willing to put himself out there (oddest because I think it's inconsistent with his character type, since they're usually emotionally contained as regards their own vulnerabilities). He's been ridiculously open in his feelings for ES, and his "first" love, as well as his rejection, are completely public.
The thing with him is, he lashes back at people who make him vulnerable, so it's an endless cycle of him hitting out at those who give him a chance, as you said, at authenticity. Like, he is the absolute worst initially, and then gains ground and tries to make up (constantly taunting Tan but never actually revealing his secret, terrifying ES and then basically working at forgiveness.) except it's sometimes always too late.
I think ES is also his do-over in some ways. He'll put himself out there for rejection with her, which he hadn't been able to do earlier with Tan. Tan gave him a chance at authenticity post affair-reveal, by making himself vulnerable re: his own secret, but Young Do rejected that, and instead picked on that vulnerability, and he's still paying for it. So ES becomes the person he's playing out the alternative scenario with; what if he'd just tried, hadn't picked on exactly that point where his lover best friend was the weakest, had allowed himself to be vulnerable then, instead of lashing out at the fact that he'd been forced into it by the situation. WHAT IF.
HE ALWAYS CHOOSES THE SAD ENDINGS. MYUNG SOO IS THE WISEST OF THEM ALL.
MYUNG SOO IS CLEARLY A HARDCORE META FANDOM PERSON. EVERYBODY KNEEL.
I love that you call it Kim Woo Bin face day. Not that this isn't basically the crux of the show tho.
I WAS WRONG THOUGH, TOMORROW IS KIM WOO BIN FACE DAY. /creys. Dude, these upcoming exams are so messing with my head and sense of time. AND TO THINK I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO IT. /endless creys
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UM?
... Are you serious, though? WHAT HAS GIVEN YOU THIS IMPRESSION? I mean, I have no doubt people like them because FANDOM GONNA BE FANDOM but I was literally just stalking fic for the show @ AO3 and ff.net (lol) and so on and dude, nobody is interested in Eun Sang/Tan, it's hilar tbh.
lmao, you are correct, princesses with hair like that are disallowed as a species to exist.
Where are the lies.
lol no, Eleonore is pretty much in agreement about Tan the person. She just has an ADDITIONAL desire to have meta parties about him, whereas I basically want him to be eaten by his ugly sweaters.
BUT THE HORRORS OF IT BECOMING EVEN MORE SO.
Dude, I just remembered you mentioning that the show nearing the tail end means things are gonna be ~heating up~ and l literally choked on my ramyun. LIKE. THEY HAVE NO SEXUAL CHEMISTRY WHATSOEVER, IT'S LITERALLY ENRAGING? PSH and LMH, I WANTED MORE FROM YOUUUUUU. /o\ /o\ /o\ PRAYER CIRCLE THEY BREAK UP AGAIN NEXT EP.
(so one-sided this triangle is, lmao, considering that ES probably cares more about YD than KT does.)
UGLY CACKLING. BUT LOL IT'S SO TRUE THOUGH?? Makes me excited for the upcoming eps ngl. (But ugh, I do not want to have hopes about this triangle.) I've been working on a theory that now YD's formally ~bowed out of the "competition", ES/YD will actually begin? I mean, presumably they will continue to interact -- only now it's not gonna be about the mean boys pissing match. Of course Tan will throw fits about it, but that will only make things more enjoyable tbh. NEVER GIVE UP HOPE FOR THE ES/YD EXISTENTIAL BROS STORYLINE.
^ THIS IS US AND OUR THOUGHT PROCESS /gpoy BECAUSE Y E S???
lol your aegyo.
I think one of the oddest parts of YD's characterization is that he's willing to put himself out there (oddest because I think it's inconsistent with his character type, since they're usually emotionally contained as regards their own vulnerabilities).
THE MIND-MELD CONTINUES. This has been bringing me amusement too, like when Bo Na and Myung Soo ~discovered~ and asked YD if he had a thing for ES, and YD was literally just like, "seems so," IN THE MOST CASUAL UNGUARDED WAY KNOWN TO MAN? It's like his self-preservation instincts are nonexistent, even though this is the same guy who's been obsessed all series with keeping the upper hand in society. Or rather, it just proves that playing power games does not come naturally to him. (OMG, NOW I'M REMINDED OF THAT FIC YOU WROTE, WHERE YOU SUGGESTED THIS EXACT THING AND AT THE TIME IT INTRIGUED ME AND I WONDERED IF CANON AGREED. OH EM GEE.)
The thing with him is, he lashes back at people who make him vulnerable, so it's an endless cycle of him hitting out at those who give him a chance, as you said, at authenticity.
WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT SELF-SABOTAGING PABO
So ES becomes the person he's playing out the alternative scenario with; what if he'd just tried, hadn't picked on exactly that point where his lover best friend was the weakest, had allowed himself to be vulnerable then, instead of lashing out at the fact that he'd been forced into it by the situation.
OMFG YES. I can't believe YD would not recognise the similarities in the situation wrt ES holding this ~terrible secret. And then he has to watch how it brings her and Tan closer together because Tan is able to do for ES what YD couldn't do for Tan. LIKE, WHO IS YD REALLY JEALOUS OF NOW.
DON'T CRYYYYYYYYYYYY. HAVE SOME WOO BIN FACE NOW:
ALSO, HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW STILLS? THE COAT GAME IS ON POINT I MUST SAY.
(Godspeed with the remaining exams btw.)
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BUT NOW THAT YOU MENTIONED FIC, I ALSO STALKED THROUGH IT AND L M A O. I actually just found one fic re: T/ES by count, heh. ALSO, Rachel and Young Do, both together and separately, seem extraordinarily popular?? THIS MAKES ME REALLY HAPPY TBH. I kind of adore Rachel, and I have yet to come across a female second lead who gets fandom love (lol, that was what started this entire 5000 word post) so I'm really pleased that she is. (Although, by default, ES and KT seem extraordinarily unpopular in the fic world, even separately?? It is hysterical and O___o by turns.)
also, yes, pls. one of those ugly sweaters has to be carnivorous. this reminds me of Lee Jong Suk's character's quote in Secret Garden,
lol, I know El agrees about Tan-the-person, and I think if I didn't particularly care about what I think the narrative framing of the character is, I could probably enjoy him a LOT more. His capacity for manipulation is ridiculous and fascinating. But that hair tho. no. #kiddiepool
LIKE. THEY HAVE NO SEXUAL CHEMISTRY WHATSOEVER.
YEAH, LIKE WHAT IF THEY GET ALL ~COUPLEY AND US AGAINST THE WORLD FROM NOW ON, BECAUSE TWO EPISODES HAVE ENDED WITHOUT TRIANGULARITY AND IT IS STARTING TO WORRY ME TBH. NHF ~ROMANTIC ~SLOW ~DANCES AS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP US GOING TILL THE NEXT EPISODE.
ES/YD will actually begin?
THIS FOREVER. THEY ARE GOING TO BE BFFS BY THE END OF THIS JUST YOU WAIT. I do wonder how it's going to develop from here on, because near the end, the triangles also tend to ~heat ~up and tbh, I also want more on the romantic/sexual angle because at least THEY have chemistry. Like, usually at this point, it's the lead who ~bows out, or ~misunderstandings arise. LMAO, FOR ONCE, I ACTUALLY WANT THE KDRAMA PATTERN FOLLOWED.
IN THE MOST CASUAL UNGUARDED WAY KNOWN TO MAN?
YES. LIKE, HIS REJECTION HAS BEEN SO PUBLIC Y'KNOW? He's constantly rejected by ES in favor of KT in front of the other kids and all he does is book the entire cafe, so she'll talk to him and spend his entire time getting clicked looking at her all lovestruck. HAH. And even the whole pretence of being okay on the family front just crumbles when someone mentions his dad? Like, there's no false bravado there, he actually gets terrified at the mention (as in case of Tan's visit or the Principal threatening to call him.) Tan, that way, is the perfect bully because he's magnificent in his use of both hard and soft power, while Young Do blusters with hard power and fails at soft power, l m a o.
I think it's his sincerity that gets confused most often, because it's the way he says thing that makes people distrust what he's saying, even though, almost 95% of the time, he probably means exactly what he's saying. (As in him saying he's hurt re: ES constantly running off to Tan in this mocking way seems to discredit his sincerity as well as emotional involvement, but he's actually being honest??)
(Also, for a whole minute I had no idea what fic you were talking about, heh.)
LIKE, WHO IS YD REALLY JEALOUS OF NOW.
OMG, THIS. Because this is what his relationship could have been if he'd only done it right. Which is why he constantly brings it up, even now, re: Tan, even though he's well aware that that particular barb holds no power whatsoever, because that's where he went wrong, and he's constantly picking on it, when all it's doing is reminding him that it's mostly his fault and he can't fix it (he always chooses the worst endings.)
HAVE SOME WOO BIN FACE NOW
UNF.
I HAVE NOT SEEN THE NEW STILLS, BUT WHY IS LMH'S STYLIST NOT TAKING LESSONS????
(what remaining exams btw, they're all remaining, i haven't even started, they start friday /endless creys)
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