(no subject)
EatSleepStudyRow (11:54:53 PM): "the moment we recognize the pattern of evil, we die."
EatSleepStudyRow (11:55:04 PM): heathcliff, wuthering heights
xfirexatxwillxx (11:55:11 PM): i like it
EatSleepStudyRow (11:55:26 PM): yup
EatSleepStudyRow (11:55:38 PM): at least...wait...it wasn't heathcliff
EatSleepStudyRow (11:55:40 PM): argh
EatSleepStudyRow (11:55:51 PM): anyways, the source isn't really relevent
EatSleepStudyRow (11:56:00 PM): what do you think it means?
xfirexatxwillxx (11:56:18 PM): that once we figure it all out we cant really stand it i think
xfirexatxwillxx (11:56:25 PM): i mean not physical death
xfirexatxwillxx (11:56:26 PM): mental
EatSleepStudyRow (11:56:35 PM): hmmm
xfirexatxwillxx (11:56:44 PM): but thats me
EatSleepStudyRow (11:56:54 PM): kinda like...we're overwhelmed with...the failure?
xfirexatxwillxx (11:57:13 PM): not the failure
xfirexatxwillxx (11:57:17 PM): the hopeless ess
xfirexatxwillxx (11:57:23 PM): *hopelessness
EatSleepStudyRow (11:57:29 PM): like...it's too big to encompass in a single lifetime...so we cease to imagine, because we know it will never be idyllic?
xfirexatxwillxx (11:58:20 PM): kinda yeah... i dont know then you look at it as once you realize the true evilness of human nature you simply cant stand to be part of it
EatSleepStudyRow (11:59:27 PM): i don't really think human nature is evil
xfirexatxwillxx (11:59:34 PM): really?
xfirexatxwillxx (11:59:37 PM): honestly?
EatSleepStudyRow (11:59:40 PM): but i think...the evil is more...the emptiness
EatSleepStudyRow (11:59:42 PM): yeah
xfirexatxwillxx (11:59:47 PM): i dont know
xfirexatxwillxx (11:59:54 PM): i htnk that society oppresses it
EatSleepStudyRow (11:59:56 PM): i think we're inherently good
EatSleepStudyRow (11:59:57 PM): yeah
xfirexatxwillxx (11:59:58 PM): so you dont realize it
xfirexatxwillxx (12:00:07 AM): but i dont think were good
xfirexatxwillxx (12:00:12 AM): i think we are bad
xfirexatxwillxx (12:00:16 AM): then turned good
EatSleepStudyRow (12:00:34 AM): turned good through religious experience or life experience?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:00:45 AM): through society's conditioning
xfirexatxwillxx (12:00:58 AM): not nessarily religious or theough life... just
xfirexatxwillxx (12:01:04 AM): we're taught that way
EatSleepStudyRow (12:01:23 AM): we're taught to be good?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:01:33 AM): i think so
xfirexatxwillxx (12:02:01 AM): were taught not to steal and not to kill and not to be cannibal and not to be angry all the time.
xfirexatxwillxx (12:02:02 AM): like
xfirexatxwillxx (12:02:04 AM): you know?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:03:04 AM): that's a really positive way to look at it
EatSleepStudyRow (12:05:24 AM): i think...we're almost conditioned to...not evil, but to nihilism... like, we're conditioned to look out for ourselves first and foremost, that success is paramount, that being egocentric is the best, that our society is a consumerist society, a throw-away mentality...we aren't conditioned to human emotions...we aren't taught about anything beyond that which directly involves us...and if we are, it's with a religious fervor...which often closes rather than opens minds
xfirexatxwillxx (12:08:48 AM): i think religion is bound to close minds. the whole concept is designed to bring closure and chase away fear. the firs t religions were started out of fear of death and the need for an explanation. of course its going to close minds. but i dont think that all that is true. i mean... you think about it humans can deteriorate so quickly when removed from society... look at solitary confinement. if left in it long enough you deteriorate to a state of complete .... monstrosity. you dont care what you kill. like look at release pows. theyre oftne violent to the people that held them in ways that are simply inhumane. i think that society supresses the evil, but lets it go in only certain circumstances... like war or job findings... you can only suppress so much
EatSleepStudyRow (12:09:32 AM): hmmm
EatSleepStudyRow (12:09:50 AM): i think...society refuses to acknowledge individual urges
EatSleepStudyRow (12:10:04 AM): like...we cannot accept them as natural
EatSleepStudyRow (12:10:14 AM): such as mother teresa...
EatSleepStudyRow (12:10:45 AM): or, contrarly, the BTK (?) killer
EatSleepStudyRow (12:11:34 AM): like...society cannot accept actions outside its stringent confines...it shuns both the very good and very bad, rather than accepting them as the course of human nature
EatSleepStudyRow (12:11:47 AM): and in that way, society is evil
xfirexatxwillxx (12:12:12 AM): but how can we all still live in a society if all society is evil?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:12:21 AM): even if its a society of ermits
xfirexatxwillxx (12:12:32 AM): people dont usually do well on their own
xfirexatxwillxx (12:12:42 AM): and i dont think that all is shunned
xfirexatxwillxx (12:13:20 AM): i dont think its possible
xfirexatxwillxx (12:13:22 AM): at all
EatSleepStudyRow (12:14:29 AM): yeah...people are naturally communal...and society taken as a whole...not say...a community of like-minded souls...such as a opus dei sect or a soccer team.....i think that society may embrace but not accept something...and not all society is evil...but the fact that so much of society is controlled by the media's portrayal of a person or a subject...it seems to be a double edged sword
xfirexatxwillxx (12:16:15 AM): this is gay but im bringing in lord of the flies here. okay. these high class boys had had the evil drilled out of them until boom theyre isolated and no society conrols, then they deteriorate into the savageness of human nautre...
xfirexatxwillxx (12:16:30 AM): this is one book but it seems like it would happen anyways
xfirexatxwillxx (12:16:51 AM): liek
xfirexatxwillxx (12:16:53 AM): *like
xfirexatxwillxx (12:16:56 AM): i dont know
xfirexatxwillxx (12:17:25 AM): i think you can argue either way forever
xfirexatxwillxx (12:17:26 AM): and
xfirexatxwillxx (12:17:31 AM): both would be applicable
xfirexatxwillxx (12:17:35 AM): its just a
xfirexatxwillxx (12:17:40 AM): different worldview
EatSleepStudyRow (12:18:01 AM): but the island was just a microcosm for the world
xfirexatxwillxx (12:18:17 AM): but the island was without SOCIETY
EatSleepStudyRow (12:18:28 AM): like...the savagry the boys played out was mirroring the war in the outside world, the duplicity, an innate part of society
EatSleepStudyRow (12:18:39 AM): how can you say that? they naturally formed a society
xfirexatxwillxx (12:18:44 AM): yes i realize that
EatSleepStudyRow (12:18:58 AM): they created two groups, they assigned tasks, they built homes
EatSleepStudyRow (12:19:07 AM): they had a heirarchy
EatSleepStudyRow (12:19:12 AM): it was a society
xfirexatxwillxx (12:20:24 AM): but it wsn't. society drifted away... but it all comes back to the idea that it suppresses it except for certain circumstances such as war or capitalism kinda... like i think socity doesnt make good people go war and fight for jobs over nothing. i thik that thats qa malfunction where it missed preventing it.
EatSleepStudyRow (12:22:13 AM): i don't agree...perhaps the concept of civilization might have slipped away...but it was still a society...and that brings up a new debate...they were reduced to the innate beastial sense of survival...but does that mean that animals--beasts--are evil?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:22:48 AM): because...look, animals live in societies, have heirarchies....yet, they innately look out for their necessary survival
xfirexatxwillxx (12:22:53 AM): i think that thats divided that they dont have the ability to process thought the way we do. they dont knwo what we deem morally good or bad
xfirexatxwillxx (12:23:14 AM): they dont have society in the sense of the human way
EatSleepStudyRow (12:23:20 AM): so why would that be a quality that human society would surpress? i think we emulate it...perhaps too much for our own good
EatSleepStudyRow (12:23:32 AM): no, they don't have a civilization
xfirexatxwillxx (12:23:35 AM): i dont think that a heirarchy defines a civilization
xfirexatxwillxx (12:23:52 AM): society
xfirexatxwillxx (12:23:55 AM): sorry
EatSleepStudyRow (12:24:23 AM): i think a heirarchy implies order, order implies longevity and plans....plans show an increase in thought, a stationary concept...showing a civilization
xfirexatxwillxx (12:24:32 AM): id ont
EatSleepStudyRow (12:24:38 AM): that was rendered irrelevent when you corrected your statement
xfirexatxwillxx (12:24:54 AM): sorry
EatSleepStudyRow (12:25:11 AM): hm?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:25:16 AM): that i missed
xfirexatxwillxx (12:25:19 AM): nevermind
xfirexatxwillxx (12:25:23 AM): you know
xfirexatxwillxx (12:25:32 AM): it pisses me off
xfirexatxwillxx (12:25:35 AM): that some people
xfirexatxwillxx (12:25:45 AM): could never follow that conversation
xfirexatxwillxx (12:25:52 AM): you know?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:26:00 AM): yeah
EatSleepStudyRow (12:26:08 AM): i love conversations like that though
xfirexatxwillxx (12:26:10 AM): me too
xfirexatxwillxx (12:26:44 AM): but here we are two 16 yar olds and we can have these thougth processes and follow this and then i send the basic gist to drew and he cant follow that
xfirexatxwillxx (12:26:53 AM): i doubt our president could follow it
xfirexatxwillxx (12:27:03 AM): which pisses me off more
EatSleepStudyRow (12:27:12 AM): i doubt he could either
EatSleepStudyRow (12:27:20 AM): but perhaps we need a balance in the world
EatSleepStudyRow (12:27:37 AM): the idealists who plan the future...the realists who create the day-to-day
xfirexatxwillxx (12:28:04 AM): perhaps.... i dont want to be a realist
xfirexatxwillxx (12:28:06 AM): ever
xfirexatxwillxx (12:28:10 AM): coincidentially
EatSleepStudyRow (12:28:22 AM): hmm
xfirexatxwillxx (12:28:25 AM): i had put this in my profile
xfirexatxwillxx (12:28:26 AM): today
xfirexatxwillxx (12:28:29 AM): its pedro the lion
xfirexatxwillxx (12:28:31 AM): Have you ever seen an idealist
With gray hairs on his head?
Or successful men
Who keep in touch with unsuccessful friends?
You only think you did
And I could've sworn I saw it too
But as it turns out
It was just a clever ad for cigarettes
Cause if it isn't making dollars
Then it isn't making sense
If you aren't moving units
Then you're not worth the expense
If you really want to make it
You had best remember this:
If it isn't penetration then it isn't worth a kiss
EatSleepStudyRow (12:28:59 AM): i like that
xfirexatxwillxx (12:29:08 AM): me too
xfirexatxwillxx (12:29:09 AM): its a song
xfirexatxwillxx (12:29:14 AM): "penetration"
xfirexatxwillxx (12:29:29 AM): its on www.purevolume.com/pedrothelion
EatSleepStudyRow (12:30:01 AM): Escapist-Never by Robert Frost
He is no fugitive-He seeks a seeker who in his turn seeks
Another still, lost far into the distance.
Any who seek him seek in him the seeker.
His life is a pursuit of a pursuit forever.
It is the future that creates his present.
All is an interminable chain of longing.
xfirexatxwillxx (12:30:29 AM): i think i like that
xfirexatxwillxx (12:30:31 AM): wow
xfirexatxwillxx (12:30:38 AM): i like something written by frost
xfirexatxwillxx (12:30:42 AM): the world is going to end
EatSleepStudyRow (12:30:48 AM): that's the last half of it
EatSleepStudyRow (12:32:02 AM): but i like that...it's sorta like...we seek the answers, yet...that search for the future is what determines our present
xfirexatxwillxx (12:32:07 AM): yeah
xfirexatxwillxx (12:32:15 AM): the origional quote i think
EatSleepStudyRow (12:32:18 AM): but can we know and discover the answers without experiencing?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:32:19 AM): reminds me of this
xfirexatxwillxx (12:32:22 AM): I felt a funeral in my brain,
And mourners, to and fro,
Kept treading, treading, till it seemed
That sense was breaking through.
And when they all were seated,
A service like a drum
Kept beating, beating, till I thought
My mind was going numb
And then I heard them lift a box,
And creak across my soul
With those same boots of lead, again.
Then space began to toll
As all the heavens were a bell,
And being, but an ear,
And I and Silence some strange Race
Wrecked, solitary, here
xfirexatxwillxx (12:32:48 AM): its dickinson
EatSleepStudyRow (12:33:03 AM): i think i've read that
xfirexatxwillxx (12:33:19 AM): i love it
xfirexatxwillxx (12:33:25 AM): its my favorite of hers
xfirexatxwillxx (12:33:28 AM): and shes like
xfirexatxwillxx (12:33:32 AM): my favorite poet ever
EatSleepStudyRow (12:33:34 AM): but it brings up the...i suppose...biggest question
xfirexatxwillxx (12:33:34 AM): haha
EatSleepStudyRow (12:33:40 AM): immortality
xfirexatxwillxx (12:33:44 AM): exactly
EatSleepStudyRow (12:33:49 AM): that's what it boils down to
EatSleepStudyRow (12:34:06 AM): Men are haunted by the vastness of eternity. And so we ask ourselves: will our actions echo across the centuries? Will strangers hear our names long after we are gone, and wonder who we were, how bravely we fought, how fiercely we loved?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:34:19 AM): it all boils down to what we find human nature to be
xfirexatxwillxx (12:34:26 AM): i think that its a personal belief
xfirexatxwillxx (12:34:36 AM): infulenced by only ourselves and our experiances
xfirexatxwillxx (12:34:37 AM): and that
xfirexatxwillxx (12:34:55 AM): human nautre cant be determined completly because everyone sees it different
xfirexatxwillxx (12:34:56 AM): so then
EatSleepStudyRow (12:35:13 AM): how is it human nature?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:35:16 AM): the quest for immoratlity may only be seen as nature to some
xfirexatxwillxx (12:35:30 AM): some may not see it that way
EatSleepStudyRow (12:35:36 AM): because...human nature would imply...native to the human race...which would be an innate sense in all humans
xfirexatxwillxx (12:35:51 AM): really
xfirexatxwillxx (12:35:52 AM): ?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:35:53 AM): i think it is society
xfirexatxwillxx (12:36:06 AM): which is why you see it as generally good and i see it as generally bad
xfirexatxwillxx (12:36:17 AM): i think that everyting is all opinionated
xfirexatxwillxx (12:36:19 AM): and changing
xfirexatxwillxx (12:36:26 AM): and its all philosophical
xfirexatxwillxx (12:36:27 AM): and
xfirexatxwillxx (12:36:39 AM): debatable, yes, but provable, no.
EatSleepStudyRow (12:36:42 AM): perhaps, humans are born with a dormant desire....which is either channeled or conquored through their society
EatSleepStudyRow (12:36:58 AM): which is why...so many fear death, yet some embrace it
EatSleepStudyRow (12:37:06 AM): i think it boils down to fear
EatSleepStudyRow (12:37:22 AM): can we be content with the life we've lived
xfirexatxwillxx (12:37:29 AM): woah
xfirexatxwillxx (12:37:33 AM): bright eyes song
xfirexatxwillxx (12:37:39 AM): "on my way to work"
xfirexatxwillxx (12:37:52 AM): its all about that kind of
xfirexatxwillxx (12:37:55 AM): you heard it?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:38:00 AM): prolly
EatSleepStudyRow (12:38:37 AM): but it's like...a struggle of inner peace
EatSleepStudyRow (12:38:57 AM): and....that is human nature
EatSleepStudyRow (12:39:09 AM): to balance society's needs and one's own needs
xfirexatxwillxx (12:39:18 AM): but how do you know?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:39:29 AM): you can never know what is human nature and what isnt
xfirexatxwillxx (12:39:34 AM): its impossible
xfirexatxwillxx (12:39:38 AM): peopel talk about it all the time
EatSleepStudyRow (12:39:41 AM): is it?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:39:49 AM): but you see it one way and i see it another
xfirexatxwillxx (12:39:57 AM): no one can scientifically prove it
xfirexatxwillxx (12:39:59 AM): every
EatSleepStudyRow (12:40:58 AM): i think the difference is you view human nature as something at each human can control...whereas i see it as an ingrained mentality that is shaped by outside forces
xfirexatxwillxx (12:41:12 AM): but see there
xfirexatxwillxx (12:41:19 AM): we can never know
xfirexatxwillxx (12:41:21 AM): ever
xfirexatxwillxx (12:41:23 AM): who is right
xfirexatxwillxx (12:41:34 AM): unless we go to heaven with god and he tells us!
xfirexatxwillxx (12:41:37 AM): :-D
xfirexatxwillxx (12:42:05 AM): woooo hoooooo religion
EatSleepStudyRow (12:42:35 AM): wow...that lowered the intelligence of this conversation about 10 IQ points
xfirexatxwillxx (12:42:41 AM): hahahahaha
xfirexatxwillxx (12:42:44 AM): i was kiddding
xfirexatxwillxx (12:42:45 AM): dude
EatSleepStudyRow (12:42:50 AM): because religion is an endless debate
xfirexatxwillxx (12:43:02 AM): i think its... well... i dont know
xfirexatxwillxx (12:43:15 AM): i dont think you ever do KNOW until its all over
xfirexatxwillxx (12:43:16 AM): and
xfirexatxwillxx (12:43:22 AM): thats just well
EatSleepStudyRow (12:43:23 AM): okay...human nature...is for explanation
EatSleepStudyRow (12:43:26 AM): you can see that
EatSleepStudyRow (12:43:39 AM): we look to explain that which we do not know
xfirexatxwillxx (12:43:41 AM): but how is that human nature?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:43:44 AM): dont we not?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:43:48 AM): be it religion or experimentation
xfirexatxwillxx (12:44:00 AM): arent the istitutions of the chuahc often based unpon not knowing
xfirexatxwillxx (12:44:02 AM): and having
xfirexatxwillxx (12:44:05 AM): "faith?"
EatSleepStudyRow (12:44:24 AM): but what do you have faith in?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:44:30 AM): an explanation
EatSleepStudyRow (12:44:33 AM): a reason
EatSleepStudyRow (12:44:50 AM): ypi jave faith in the surity o the religion...that it provides an answer
xfirexatxwillxx (12:44:50 AM): no
xfirexatxwillxx (12:44:53 AM): not really
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:00 AM): you have faith in the mystery being unknow
EatSleepStudyRow (12:45:00 AM): argh
EatSleepStudyRow (12:45:04 AM): evil typing
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:08 AM): how do you explain the
EatSleepStudyRow (12:45:09 AM): how?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:11 AM): trinity
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:12 AM): or
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:16 AM): ansectry
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:23 AM): you cant physically explain it
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:27 AM): you "believe" it
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:38 AM): you believe there is no explaination
EatSleepStudyRow (12:45:42 AM): but why do you believe it?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:42 AM): fate is an example
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:48 AM): because others tell you
xfirexatxwillxx (12:45:52 AM): society tells you
EatSleepStudyRow (12:45:52 AM): what does the belief do for a person?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:46:01 AM): it comforts you
xfirexatxwillxx (12:46:09 AM): it drives away fear
xfirexatxwillxx (12:46:11 AM): but
xfirexatxwillxx (12:46:13 AM): really
EatSleepStudyRow (12:46:17 AM): it provides an explanation that there is a purpose
EatSleepStudyRow (12:46:28 AM): it assures you that you are not alone
EatSleepStudyRow (12:46:39 AM): and why do we fear these things?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:46:46 AM): why do we need the assurance?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:47:28 AM): because humans are intrinsically communal creatures
xfirexatxwillxx (12:47:37 AM): how do you know that?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:47:48 AM): you said it yourself
EatSleepStudyRow (12:47:59 AM): look at the people in solitary confinement
xfirexatxwillxx (12:48:02 AM): true
xfirexatxwillxx (12:48:04 AM): i dont know
xfirexatxwillxx (12:48:23 AM): this is all a giant circle that leads to no conclusion we are ever going to stumble upon
EatSleepStudyRow (12:48:30 AM): animally--it's necessary to perpetuate the species
xfirexatxwillxx (12:48:32 AM): i want to study philosophy
EatSleepStudyRow (12:48:53 AM): it's the reason nomads hunted in groups
EatSleepStudyRow (12:49:23 AM): it is the reason society exists
EatSleepStudyRow (12:49:46 AM): because no human, independently, can evoke change
xfirexatxwillxx (12:49:56 AM): but havent we been conditioned to think this way?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:50:02 AM): you need to convince another to follow you, to impact another
xfirexatxwillxx (12:50:25 AM): isnt this whole conversation based upon other's ideals we have learned and processed?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:50:35 AM): so why do we think were going to solve this?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:50:44 AM): is it a quest for immortality?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:50:59 AM): are we just trying it now?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:51:04 AM): is it human nautre?
EatSleepStudyRow (12:51:14 AM): what are we trying to solve?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:51:14 AM): do we have human nautre?
xfirexatxwillxx (12:51:33 AM): i think life nad society and evil and immortality
xfirexatxwillxx (12:51:39 AM): and the quote from wuthering heights
wow. intelligent conversations brighten my day.