Beware: spoilers for fanfic herewendelah1September 16 2014, 20:03:42 UTC
This is scattered. Perhaps because I'm very conflicted. I think, for instance, that Khyber's "Sokol" is a challenging masterwork, but I don't think I designate it as tragic. Dark, yes, dark. But kind of happy at the end.
I can't see a fic that ends with Mulder and Scully on the run as any kind of happy ending. That's how the series concluded, except in "Sokol" they end up somewhere in South America instead of W. Virginia. It's an original concept, brilliantly executed, and as far away from the hashed-over romance and/or babyfic tropes that the fandom remnant is currently recycling as one can imagine. It's true that Mulder and Scully are still alive at the end, but with hungry space ghosts still out there and colonization still on the horizon, that's not exactly a happy ending, is it?
Though I would disagree that "Negative Utopia" is the darkest of Prufrock's Love's (awkward) fics. There was one in which M marries a S lookalike and then CD and it was dreadful!
Roadtrip-lagged or not, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Let's do a comparison of the two novels.
"Negative Utopia" features colonization, with most of humanity being dead of disease, starvation, or murder. Humans are killed by their own kind and hunted down by the aliens. Women are murdered, turned into property, or become "whores." Skinner gets beheaded at Mulder's request, Gibson is raping a child who gets pregnant and dies in childbirth, Scully is having sex with Mulder because she is too afraid to refuse him. Marita has a child by Mulder, so he's been fucking with her, too. Strangely, after the apocalypse, no one remembers how to use birth control (now I'm mocking prufrock). Mulder has been helping the colonists, so he's a traitor to humanity. That litany of horrors is just off the top of my head.
"The Wasteland" is the "one in which M marries a S lookalike and then CD and it was dreadful!" Admittedly, I read it a long time ago, but despite the unhappy ending, I didn't find it that depressing.
Even if it had ended with a double murder-suicide, I don't see how it can be darker than the darkest novel about colonization that the fandom produced. Billions dead | Mulder and/or Scully plus their respective spouses dead and/or unhappy. I know which sounds darker to me. Mulder and Scully ending up together at the end of the world doesn't really mitigate the catastrophe of "Negative Utopia." YMMV.
I didn't list "Everyone Having a Good Time" simply because I didn't like it. Ditto for "Oklahoma." Very over-rated fanfics, imho.
I admire Julie Fortune and I do like "Fata Morgana." We've never discussed it here, have we? It's very well-written. It somehow doesn't fit the darkfic genre for me but I'd have to think about it some more to explain why.
I agree that "Machines of Freedom" as a standalone doesn't fit this category. It's the opposite of dark fic, isn't it? Humanity is saved, Mulder and Scully get reunited with William without offing his parents. Casey goes back in time so that Mulder is saved and along the way her brother William is saved, too. The darkfic is all of the stuff that happens to her and Scully off stage in the other timeline. Many of the Caseyverse fics that Amal wrote afterward are darkfic, for sure.
Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic hereestella_cSeptember 16 2014, 20:53:12 UTC
I plan to answer but have a demanding evening. Doing guess what! Seeing GA in "A Streetcar Named Desire," that's what! (We had a bus in Philly called "Rising Sun.")
Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic hereestella_cSeptember 23 2014, 14:35:45 UTC
I promised I would answer this, and then I went off and did unimportant life things and THIS IS SUCH A WONDERFUL THREAD. It exploded without my valuable attention. Thanks, Fish. We really should do more general discussions.
About NU, I think I'm just kind of dead-hearted when it comes to the after-the-invasion/war dystopias. I read a bunch when I was young and strong and afterward regarded them as background noise. (This despite the fact that we seem to be heading for planetary disaster as I type.) Anyhow, I suspect I dishonestly skimmed that one. It is quite ugly. But Mulder still cares deeply for Scully. The ship survives. But TW is ALL about the ship, and it is storm-shattered, capsized, and left to scavengers. It is just heartbreaking because the writer and her minions consider heartbreaking fun. I don't.
This is not good commentary. It is tantrum. Moving on.
There are tragic elements, at least sorrowful ones, in Sokol, and I really should remember it better as I read the damn thing repeatedly. But there is also authentic triumph of the human spirit. And everyone is alive in the end. Even Frohike. Are you listening, Mr. Carter?
Now I shall try to join the party. After everyone has left and the booze is gone.
Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic herewendelah1September 23 2014, 14:51:01 UTC
But TW is ALL about the ship, and it is storm-shattered, capsized, and left to scavengers. It is just heartbreaking because the writer and her minions consider heartbreaking fun. I don't.
Not a shipper, which is probably why "The Wasteland" didn't really faze me. I was much more affected by the loss of Skinner's head. *g*
Maybe the writer and "her minions" just got bored with reading (and writing) the same old MSR. I know I do. I imagine blowing up the ship occasionally is a good thing for a writer to do. Clears the sinuses.
Good romance is hard to write, which may account for its relative rarity.
Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic herebadforthefishSeptember 24 2014, 21:24:54 UTC
Who wrote The Wasteland? I'll add it on my list, along with Sokol, which I can't remember if I've read. It might be one of those long "I'll read it when I have time" fic, which I never find the time to read. :)
Skinner loses his head? Really? Damnit! Estella, I need to change a certain event in you know what. *sigh*
Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic hereestella_cSeptember 24 2014, 21:58:22 UTC
I'm not asking for romance, although sex might be nice. And why should I care about whether PL is bored? There's always yoga and the food channels. I just don't want to read about a masochistic Mulder destroyed by events designed by someone who likes to destroy masochists. It's self-indulgent, which is not terrible if you're a merry and character-loving writer, but terrible if you're...well, I'll say it...Prufrock's Love.
Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic herewendelah1September 24 2014, 22:41:34 UTC
I'm sorry. Was someone holding you at gunpoint, forcing you to read her fanfic back in the day?
I think this is why they invented the back-button.
You're only saying it's self-indulgent for her to write what she wants to write because you don't like it. If you don't want to read that kind of fic, don't read it. For someone who is "infamous for not giving a damn about keeping the characters exactly as CC and Co. imagined them," you certainly are having no problem passing judgment on prufrock's love.
What about this statement? Why does it apply only to "Iolokus"and not to "The Wasteland"?
"The animating force of this fandom is, I believe, the infinite number of nooks and crannies of possibility that make original perceptions possible. Why not multiple Mulders? Why not a murderous Scully? Our only boundaries are those we set ourselves. Which we each have a right to do."
So go ahead and set your boundaries--for reading and for writing fanfic.
Anyway, I thought we had agreed long ago that we would stick to discussing the work, and not the writer. I take responsibility for bringing up the writer's motivation in the first place, and making it personal. And now I'm taking responsibility for ending this thread.
As you say, there's always yoga and the food channels. As for me, shopping and laundry await.
Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic hereestella_cSeptember 25 2014, 01:06:04 UTC
No one has ever held me at gunpoint. Metaphorically speaking, however, I was forced to read PL's stories. Because they were the best thing ever, according to all reports.
I have never said that the lady can't write. I do, however, believe that she enjoyed making her readers feel just terrible. I've read much of her stuff, and it's almost all laboring under a doom cloud. You seem to feel that I'm attacking her. Okay, I apologize. She is definitely one of the better writers in our fandom. She wrote what she wanted and she got the love.
Not, however, from me.
Maybe...maybe...it's because I never noticed a sense of humor. But that's personal. It's all just very, very personal.
I can't see a fic that ends with Mulder and Scully on the run as any kind of happy ending. That's how the series concluded, except in "Sokol" they end up somewhere in South America instead of W. Virginia. It's an original concept, brilliantly executed, and as far away from the hashed-over romance and/or babyfic tropes that the fandom remnant is currently recycling as one can imagine. It's true that Mulder and Scully are still alive at the end, but with hungry space ghosts still out there and colonization still on the horizon, that's not exactly a happy ending, is it?
Though I would disagree that "Negative Utopia" is the darkest of Prufrock's Love's (awkward) fics. There was one in which M marries a S lookalike and then CD and it was dreadful!
Roadtrip-lagged or not, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Let's do a comparison of the two novels.
"Negative Utopia" features colonization, with most of humanity being dead of disease, starvation, or murder. Humans are killed by their own kind and hunted down by the aliens. Women are murdered, turned into property, or become "whores." Skinner gets beheaded at Mulder's request, Gibson is raping a child who gets pregnant and dies in childbirth, Scully is having sex with Mulder because she is too afraid to refuse him. Marita has a child by Mulder, so he's been fucking with her, too. Strangely, after the apocalypse, no one remembers how to use birth control (now I'm mocking prufrock). Mulder has been helping the colonists, so he's a traitor to humanity. That litany of horrors is just off the top of my head.
"The Wasteland" is the "one in which M marries a S lookalike and then CD and it was dreadful!" Admittedly, I read it a long time ago, but despite the unhappy ending, I didn't find it that depressing.
Even if it had ended with a double murder-suicide, I don't see how it can be darker than the darkest novel about colonization that the fandom produced. Billions dead | Mulder and/or Scully plus their respective spouses dead and/or unhappy. I know which sounds darker to me. Mulder and Scully ending up together at the end of the world doesn't really mitigate the catastrophe of "Negative Utopia." YMMV.
I didn't list "Everyone Having a Good Time" simply because I didn't like it. Ditto for "Oklahoma." Very over-rated fanfics, imho.
I admire Julie Fortune and I do like "Fata Morgana." We've never discussed it here, have we? It's very well-written. It somehow doesn't fit the darkfic genre for me but I'd have to think about it some more to explain why.
I agree that "Machines of Freedom" as a standalone doesn't fit this category. It's the opposite of dark fic, isn't it? Humanity is saved, Mulder and Scully get reunited with William without offing his parents. Casey goes back in time so that Mulder is saved and along the way her brother William is saved, too. The darkfic is all of the stuff that happens to her and Scully off stage in the other timeline. Many of the Caseyverse fics that Amal wrote afterward are darkfic, for sure.
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I didn't get much discussion going though. I don't know why. I still think it's brilliant.
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About NU, I think I'm just kind of dead-hearted when it comes to the after-the-invasion/war dystopias. I read a bunch when I was young and strong and afterward regarded them as background noise. (This despite the fact that we seem to be heading for planetary disaster as I type.) Anyhow, I suspect I dishonestly skimmed that one. It is quite ugly. But Mulder still cares deeply for Scully. The ship survives. But TW is ALL about the ship, and it is storm-shattered, capsized, and left to scavengers. It is just heartbreaking because the writer and her minions consider heartbreaking fun. I don't.
This is not good commentary. It is tantrum. Moving on.
There are tragic elements, at least sorrowful ones, in Sokol, and I really should remember it better as I read the damn thing repeatedly. But there is also authentic triumph of the human spirit. And everyone is alive in the end. Even Frohike. Are you listening, Mr. Carter?
Now I shall try to join the party. After everyone has left and the booze is gone.
Reply
Not a shipper, which is probably why "The Wasteland" didn't really faze me. I was much more affected by the loss of Skinner's head. *g*
Maybe the writer and "her minions" just got bored with reading (and writing) the same old MSR. I know I do. I imagine blowing up the ship occasionally is a good thing for a writer to do. Clears the sinuses.
Good romance is hard to write, which may account for its relative rarity.
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Skinner loses his head? Really? Damnit!
Estella, I need to change a certain event in you know what. *sigh*
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I think this is why they invented the back-button.
You're only saying it's self-indulgent for her to write what she wants to write because you don't like it. If you don't want to read that kind of fic, don't read it. For someone who is "infamous for not giving a damn about keeping the characters exactly as CC and Co. imagined them," you certainly are having no problem passing judgment on prufrock's love.
What about this statement? Why does it apply only to "Iolokus"and not to "The Wasteland"?
"The animating force of this fandom is, I believe, the infinite number of nooks and crannies of possibility that make original perceptions possible. Why not multiple Mulders? Why not a murderous Scully? Our only boundaries are those we set ourselves. Which we each have a right to do."
So go ahead and set your boundaries--for reading and for writing fanfic.
Anyway, I thought we had agreed long ago that we would stick to discussing the work, and not the writer. I take responsibility for bringing up the writer's motivation in the first place, and making it personal. And now I'm taking responsibility for ending this thread.
As you say, there's always yoga and the food channels. As for me, shopping and laundry await.
But tomorrow is another day...
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Because they were the best thing ever, according to all reports.
I have never said that the lady can't write. I do, however, believe that she enjoyed making her readers feel just terrible. I've read much of her stuff, and it's almost all laboring under a doom cloud. You seem to feel that I'm attacking her. Okay, I apologize. She is definitely one of the better writers in our fandom. She wrote what she wanted and she got the love.
Not, however, from me.
Maybe...maybe...it's because I never noticed a sense of humor. But that's personal. It's all just very, very personal.
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I'm making a judgment based on what you wrote here. You were making this personal, making it about her, and her fan base, and not about her writing.
You still are.
"I do believe she enjoyed making her readers feel just terrible."
"Maybe...maybe...it's because I never noticed a sense of humor."
Let's get back to discussing the writing and not the writer. That's what we're here for, after all.
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