Something new ...

[wyncatastrophe]

Lately, I've become curious about what folks think happened between TPM and AotC that makes all that mush on Naboo believable (or not, depending on what camp you're in). The issue of what prior sexual experiences they did or didn't have before each other may not be a defining factor, but it's something I'm hashing out right now in the Life in

Comments

[darth_eldritch]

Thanks!

What I see is based on years of studying Catholicism and discussing these sort of things about Star Wars and what not with a mentor who was very devout Catholic and loved Star Wars. We both felt that George Lucas had a bit of Catholic influence in writing SW, the redemption of Vader, the monkish ordr of Jedi. The line of "May the Force be with you," is almost directly out of the Catholic Eucharist celebration of the Host (the body of Jesus Christ) "May the Lord be with you," which the celebrant, or priest, says, to which the congregation responds "And also with you." For years I always had that mental response, And also with you, in my head whenever someone said May the Force be with you.
Point being that is celebacy, no sex whatsoever. (Which doesn't work very well in too many cases...:(...)

I've never heard of that writer and I'm sure that I would disagree with her line of reasoning if I read it. But the concept has been played with by Dark Horse, too. And I'm sure some Jedi view it that way, also. Anakin being one of them, and I agree with what you say; he would not be inclined to engage in casual sex.

But I'm not going to argue with anyone who sees casual non attached sex is okay for Jedi. In the early Old Republic nobody thought anything of it.

It's funny because I wrote a really smutty piece of two young Sith going at it, but only after making excuses of why they were doing it and how they would keep their Dark Lord from finding out. (Old Republic stuff.) because they were afraid their master would kill them for their lack of discipline and conspiring together. They also felt they had to justify that it wasn't squandering vital energy.

[wyncatastrophe]

My folks are Catholic. They converted when I was a teen, so there were lots of RCIA classes and such. I don't think the Jedi remotely resemble Catholic monks on the whole, certainly not in the modern era - to me they have much more in common with eastern mystics. But with that said, the Plotinian Catholics of the 4th and 5th centuries A.D. -- Augustine of Hippo, for instance -- would probably have gotten along well with the Council, so: Point taken. Nice thought about the "May the Lord be with you," although where I go to church it's a greeting (much like "peace be with you") as well as a part of the liturgy. Yes, I have that same response to "May the Force be with you," hehe. But of course, there are religious orders that do not practice celibacy - not so much in the Roman Catholic church, but consider the lay clergy of the Anglican church (not sure if I got all my terms right, there). I had religion classes for several years, plus a couple of Religion and Philosophy courses in college, but I'm no expert! If you're interested in the interaction of philosophy and religious orders in the Western world, though, there are a couple of good books by the popular historian Thomas Cahill: How the Irish Saved Civilization and something about the Middle Ages ... I forget the title, but search Cahill and they should be part of the same Hinges of History series, a nice idea although scholars put their noses in the air about his popularizing approach. The proof is in the bibliography ... Cahill's is extensive and helpfully annotated.

Karen Traviss? She's been one of the more popular writers for Clone Wars era and beginning-of-the-Empire stuff, I think. Hang on, I'll type up the key bits (from pages 62-64):

Ahsoka chimed in. "Attachment leads to the dark side. Because it leads to fear, jealousy, and anger.
[...]
"What's wrong with attachment?" he asked. "Why can't you have attachments? You mean love, right?"
[...]
"Love is acceptable," she said at last. "But not attachment."
"What if love isn't an attachment?"
"Attachment is ... putting personal relationships first, caring about the people you love so that it influences how you act." Ahsoka seemed to be picking her words carefully. Coric stared at her. "You know, it affects your judgment."
"But ol' Pellaeon's just having a spot of romance, if you know what I mean. [...] Can you have a spot of romance if you don't get attached?"
[...]
"Romance," Ahsoka said stiffly, "is acceptable. Jedi are not ... celibate. Just ... no attachment."
Ince adopted a wonderful frown of apparent bewilderment. "That's a bit cold, ma'am. Love 'em and leave 'em?"
[...]
"I don't make the rules," she said at last. [...] "But I accept that wiser beings made them, and so I'll follow them."

There. The Jedi policy. But, as I recall, you have a fairly fluid take on the EU, so you may or may not find that relevant.

I snurfled at your Sithly scenario. I can see it now: Ventress vs. Dooku. (I know, they're not Old Republic, I suck at Old Republic because I don't know the canon.)

My thought is that Anakin is the type - maybe partly because of Shmi - who sees sex as an expression of love, and only secondarily a convenient release. My head!canon says: he's a cuddler! Hehe.

BTW, I always love your comments. You put so much thought into them, they're always interesting to read. So thanks, again.

[darth_eldritch]

I haven't read any Ahsoka stuff. There's a lot of SW material that completely disagrees with what she says.

I was seeing it from a strict Catholic definition of adultery which includes not even thinking of sex. (we attended church where the pastor was OLD SCHOOL)
I certainly see the Eastern mysticism of the Jedi, but there is a component of the Western monk to them, too. It's hard to explain, but it is in kind of in line with what you are saying about Augustine getting along with the Council. But then I see a lot of similarities between early Xtian monks and the Eastern monks.

The symbolism of the lightsabers, too. Blue is the sword of St. Michael the Archangel (Obi-Wan the protector), and red the color of Satan (Vader carries the red saber as a representation of the emperor- who is the devil incarnate). Green means novice, or in the Church, Easter tide, where the new champion comes out- a new Luke coming from defeat and spiritual death (the awful revelation in ESB) with his green lightsaber he had made himself.
Yoda has a green lightsaber because like a true black belt, he sees himself as an enternal novice, not a master. (It's said in martial arts that the black belt rank is where the artists finally starts learning and must keep that atitude)--which is Eastern wisdom in this instance.

Oh, to cuddle Anakin, I bet he's nice and warm and craves the touch and affection. Poor Ani. Think of how terrible a prison that Vader get up really is.

And I enjoy reading your perspective because you are so learned in this and understand where I am coming from :)

[wyncatastrophe]

Hang on, I'm taking the Augustine/Plotinus stuff to its own post, lol. It's too nuanced a topic to hang out in our meta comments.

Neat about the symbol of the lightsabers; I wouldn't have thought of it that way because in the Methodist church, when I was growing up, we had red vestments for some time of the year (forget when, now, bad student that I am ...).

Obi-Wan the archangel? Hehe. I'll have to tell you my Meeting St. Michael story sometime.

Yoda doesn't really see himself as that much of a novice, IMO, until the end of ROTS, when he starts to realize that he has Screwed Up Big Time and accepts help from Qui-Gon. I think of green lightsabers as being kind of the color of life and vitality, blue as the color of calm. Which is why I always feel that Anakin's lightsaber should've really been green. Anyhoo.

I know, so much of the horror of it all resides in knowing just how antithetical this separation and isolation and sense of mechanical chill must be to the guy we knew. The entrapment is the worst, it breaks my heart all over again every time I watch the films.

Gotta put on my thinking cap about Plotinus, because Lord knows what I did with the paper I wrote on this.

[darth_eldritch]

Plotinus is awesome. I have always been meaning to read the entirety of the Enneads.

During Lent the color is violet, then green for rebirth come Easter.

I find this color scheme of lightsabers to be the most fitting - Obi-Wan was Luke's protector as he grew up. Yoda was supposed to be humble, but as Sidious said, he had grown arrogant.

And the expression of horror Ani had when that mask lowered on his face...

[wyncatastrophe]

Hee! Well, there's no time like the present.

The truth is that Plotinus and his compatriots frustrate me, and when it comes right down to it, it's the same sort of thing that frustrates me about the Jedi Council in the Prequels: it seems like really cold philosophy. I mean, erudite, insightful, even inspiring ... but there's no love there. I like the warmer, more human stuff, even if it's less thoughtful. Maybe this is why I wrote that whole Patrick vs. Augustine paper in my first grad school.

I think we might've gotten our color scheme mixed up, because that doesn't sound right. I'm almost sure I remember white vestments at a Holy Saturday vigil. Or I could just have a faulty memory. I don't always recall visual information well.

"Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones." Ahem.

I know! That was really the moment that sold the whole Vader transformation thing for me, that made me see Anakin inside the suit when he shows up in ANH. It wrenches me every time. I may or may not have gasped and cried. I know a lot of fans have complained that Christensen "ruined Star Wars" because of his sort of sullen portrayal of Anakin (notwithstanding that Lucas said he wanted "a sullen, James Dean edge"), and some of AOTC was hit and miss, but that was some good acting, not to overstated, saying everything you need to know with just a look. And that under some serious prosthetics.

Oh, Ani ... *sigh*

[darth_eldritch]

I could be wrong on the church color scheme. Green might mean Ordinary days. White (often with gold, like on Christmas) sounds right. But I think I am drawing on the old tales of knights that are heavily based on Christianity, where green has that significance.

I feel, like Ralph McQuarrie, that Hayden should have been given freer reign in portraying Anakin, that it was Lucas holding him back, not Hayden's acting skill that "ruined" the prequels that everyone seems to gripe about.

Yes, the Plotinus philosophy and the Jedi Code seems to strive for pristine purity, rather than the feeling human condition. In this sense the Jedi have lost touch with humanity (all sentient kind) and grew into the ivory towered existance outside normal sentient experience. They grew distant.