Heroism Is Not Gendered

[wyld_dandelyon]

It was at a fannish gathering--at my house, I think--that I first heard the term "Mary Sue". Some large person with a beard was using it to put down the work of a female writer. I protested. I didn't see anything wrong with the very competent female character he was taking exception to

Comments

[tuftears]

Personally I look at it this way: what are the threat levels the characters are fighting? Mary Sue/Marty Sue are what happen when the characters are *too* competent for the enemies to matter. Maybe they have psychic powers, maybe the enemies are incredibly stupid, whatever the case, it just drains away all drama when every conflict is resolved as soon as it happens.

Some people might think of Honor Harrington as a Mary Sue, but despite her 'ubercompetence' and the presence of a Special Psychic Friend (treecat), for most of her books she has *extreme opposition*. She's outnumbered, her ships are smaller than the enemies', she'd better be bringing something special to the table to be able to handle it.

[wyld_dandelyon]

I certainly agree that a story is poorly written when the protagonist is not meaningfully challenged by the threats in the story. Absolutely. It's hard to care if fixing things is too easy

[tuftears]

True enough. I don't myself favor the term 'Mary Sue', I prefer 'OP' or "overpowered".

[wyld_dandelyon]

"Ovepowered" or "Overpowered Protagonist" is so much more to the point, and doesn't require explanation. It's perfect.

It doesn't include the idea of author insertion or author daydream, but really, I'm not so sure it's inherently bad for an author to start with a daydream. Where an author starts is really beside the point. What matters is the story they tell when they're done.

[tuftears]

'Tis true, the Mary Sue business does derive partly from authorial self-insertion and that only matters when you're dealing with franchise fic where you're dealing with others' chars. If they're all your chars, who cares if one is a little more you than the others?

[wyld_dandelyon]

Oh, but when I was first introduced to the term, that was the strongest objection given. It wasn't about story balance so much as it was, to the gentleman I was talking to, about not being interested in reading about what he felt was a blatantly idealized version of the female writer.

[tuftears]

That's sad! (I interpret that as he wasn't interested in reading about/empathizing with female characters period)

[wyld_dandelyon]

In retrospect, I agree. Unless, of course, the female characters fit his idea of "feminine" (and probably also "sexy").

[tuftears]

Maybe as a 'convenient girlfriend' for the 'main character' but as the protagonist? -_-

[wyld_dandelyon]

Well, you know, if she's feminine and sexy and has no boyfriend, a guy could daydream.

It's not a Mary Sue (or Whatever Stew) if you don't write it down, I guess.

[mneme]

The term as originally coined (initially almost entirely used by women, as both fanfic writers and their primary readers were women at the time!) was about a character who has pretty much no purpose in the story except to serve as a vehicle for authorial fantasy--thus she (or he, for a Stu) warps the story around her, despite never having established skills or training can always manage to save the day, has romantic liasons with the main characters, pushing aside anyone they were involved in in canon, etc. It wasn't simply authorial insertion characters (like, you mean, any Heinlein hero ever, particularly the old men?), but ones that were clearly a thin fantasy that had a very limited (possibly singular) audience

[wyld_dandelyon]

As to Wesley, there's no evidence that his presence is an authorial insertion that I know of. But certainly there are other ways to describe the problems with the stories where he was inserted as a central character.

Similarly, there are other and better ways to describe any problems one might have with other characters one might label "Mary Sue".

One of the things that this conversation has shown me is that there are a number of things people assume is meant by "Mary Sue" -- and they're not all the same. Authorial insertion, daydream fantasy, aversion to competent female protagonists, slash fantasy, unrealistically perfect character, overpowered protagonist -- there's doubtless more. Even if the phrase hadn't become associated with sexism, that limits the term's usefulness.