(Untitled)

[wwidsith]

It was a frustrating drive to work this morning, listening to a long debate on the Today programme about the ordination of women bishops. A convention of the synod today will decide whether or not we will get any; over a thousand priests have said they will leave the church if women are allowed to become bishops. In case they start menstruating in

Comments

[weofodthignen]

All religions of the world boil down to the so-called "Golden Rule", of treating other people the way you would like to be treated, and to the extent that we can be sure of anything a God might agree with we can be sure he agrees with that.
Actually a common misconception. Indigenous religions tend to require one treat one's own well, and enemies badly; even the Old Testament distinguishes between murder (what they forbid in one of the commandments) and justified killing, but one could hardly say killing someone is something one would wish them to do to oneself . . . Jesus' changed this with his new overriding commandment to treat your neighbour like yourself. Although the Wiccan Rede is clearly an echo of it. The point of the Parable of the Good Samaritan is that this is one of the changes. Also have you read Hávamál?

Moreover, in both Xianity and Islam, an important part of the "doing to others as you would be done by" is converting them by any means necessary. It's that claim to have the only Truth that makes all these people so grim about their doctrinal differences, and causes them to focus so much on dictating "moral" issues.

Anyone who's ever left any of these religions, or Judaism, other than for atheism is distinguishing between belief and worship. It's actually quite common, although many people put it in terms of "organized religion" or even "religion" as a whole rather than of distaste for the particular god or doctrines--because the "Truth" focus causes both Xians and Moslems to talk of "belief" when they mean "acceptance."

Of course I believ in the Xian/Moslem/Jewish god. I loathe him. I believe in a lot of other gods too, some of whom I like and others whom I don't, but I only worship one lot. Minus the heathen vehemence, I think you'll find that's a common pagan attitude, and I presume you'd find it among lower-caste Hindus and many other people still following their ancestral religions. You might even find it in some Jews, though mostly they think about their god as little as possible since they can't worship him the way he wants any more, and hence the Reform branch at least has morphed into a religion of rational morality that fits the expectations you express . . .

IMO people are in a particular religion for varying reasons: duty to family/culture; conviction that it is the Truth; social conformism, snobbery, or political power; the emotional or spiritual feeling that it's personally right for them; friendship; self-improvement or other personal benefits. So what may be very important to one person--such as enlightened morality or there being many others nearby with the same religion--may be irrelevant to someone else.

From my perspective, it behooves those of us who are not Xian to let each Xian sect get on with its own self-defining. I was raised C of E, but having left it, it's nothing to do with me whether those remaining in it have rules against gay clergy, female clergy, orf anything else. To each his own. It's no longer the state religion except by default, so it really isn't my business, and it's important to me personally to speak up against the assumption that its rules somehow affect every British subject.

M
2 weeks late and from a freaky place, as usual

[wwidsith]

Wow...thanks for this long response. There is loads in here so I will just reply to some of these points.

I don't think the universality of the Golden Rule is a misconception, although certainly you could (and have) made a good counter-argument. But the fact you can find exceptions doesn't detract from the striking ubiquity of it in different religions. It was, for example, central to the Parliament of World Religions's 1993 statement of shared values (http://www.kusala.org/udharma/globalethic.html).

I don't know enough about native religions to talk about that, but I'll accept your point. However I want to try and draw a distinction between social folklore and important thinkers of a given era. Greek mythology, for example, shows the kind of self-interest which is present in a lot of "native" mythologies, including Germanic - but we also know that a lot of Greek philosophers spoke out against this and in favour of compassion, including Thales, Isocrates and others. It seems to me that it is these people who have become important to us today, partly because they are expressing ideas which are found in so many disparate cultures.

You're right that the OT is quite bloodthirsty, but don't forget that the Golden Rule is found in Leviticus and is important for Judaism. Hillel's famous quote was: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

I'm also not sure about conversion. Yes it's important in Christianity, but much less so in Islam, where there is a long tradition of acceptance of Jews and Christians at least. I don't know. Heathenry and paganism I find fascinating, but I confess I tend to think of them more as a game or activity than a religion. But then I do not share your confidence in the existence of supernatural beings.

PS I have read bits of Havamal (in translation). I understand it is a major source for the ethical codes of neopagans.