A bit of sadness QQ and maybe LFG on WrA (US) allyside

[rowanf]

About a week ago the officers of Alt Factory, a guild I had been with for several years, decided (for reasons that are opaque to me) to kick out a large portion of the guild members (from the guild, our FB page, our guild site and Lj so we can't even communicate at all). They cited "inactivity" but since I was on a guild toon pretty much daily and

Comments

[af_officers]

About a week ago the officers of Alt Factory decided to kick out a large portion of the guild members (from the guild, our FB page, our guild site and Lj so we can't even communicate at all). They cited "inactivity".

We did not remove a large portion of members from our roster. We removed six players, citing a lack of participation or behavior which is contradictory to the guild atmosphere we all (our members included) have worked so hard to maintain. (To quote our posts regarding this matter: "We have removed members who no longer contribute to the guild (either in conversation or in donating their ideas or time), as well as those who do not represent the guild in a positive light.")

Three members were removed because they had not logged in or participated in guild chat, guild events, or contributed to conversation or discussion at our FB or on our forums for an extended period of time. Those three were removed for inactivity. The others -- yourself included -- were removed for reasons which we will not go over here or on any other public forum.

There are, however, ways you can communicate with us personally. Our officer email address and LiveJournal have been around for 2 years. Our email address can be found on several pages across our website (particularly on our Contact Page) and has been there since its inception. The officer LJ is the moderator of our guild community, and our email address can be found on the af_officers profile as well. When an email is sent or a PM is received, it is forwarded to each of the officers' personal inboxes. It's easy to reach us, and we encourage anyone to get in touch with us privately regarding guild decisions and policy before trying to name and shame.

I don't know if I really want to reguild my toons very quickly. I can't believe they didn't even give us warning enough to buy rep tabards from the guild vendor before finding ourselves unguilded. Is it really worth trying to rebuild on WrA?

You mentioned guild vendor gear in the Caps Lock post as well, so we assume this is important to you. In case no one else mentions it... You only lose one level of guild reputation when you leave or are removed from a guild, as long as you reguild within 30 days. If you were exalted with Alt Factory, you'll be revered with your next guild upon joining with that same toon. If you want quick access to rep tabards, heirlooms, and pets, you should reguild as soon as possible.

We have done nothing to diminish your reputation on the server. We would never try to prevent you from joining another guild or attempt to push you off of WrA. If you wish to play elsewhere, do; but we've given no reason for you to run for the hills.

Oh, and Alt Factory says they are closed for recruitment. If they should re-open, please keep in mind this arbitrary gkick possibility should you consider joining.

We have temporarily closed recruitment. Each of the officers has something going on outside of WoW which demands our care and attention, so none of us felt we had the time or resources to bring in new members and help them feel as welcome as they should. This is not the first time AF has needed to close recruitment because of factors outside of the game, and it likely won't be the last. It's not a matter of if we re-open but when.

We do not remove members arbitrarily. Over the years, most members have been kicked for inactivity (we allow a 3-month period of inactivity before member removal, which is quite lax). There have been exceptions, sure, but we do not gkick people just because we can. We're not going to argue with you or try to change your mind, but others should know members who show an interest in the guild and respect their guildmates and follow what rules we have will be fine.

Finally, we feel it's inappropriate to discuss the situation any further on WoW Ladies. If you want to hash this out, please send us an email or PM our officer account. Thank you.

[thistle_chaser]

Wow, talk about the OP misrepresenting things. You might poke the first couple people who commented to scroll down to see the truth.

[sool]

idk, if they're kicking people without any discussion its not exactly a vote of confidence. also IIRC this happened with another WL member (maybe it was d_g) fairly recently? not to mention the person _commenting in this post_ about the same thing happening to them so yeah it doesn't seem far fetched to me that this isn't just a misrepresentation.

[thistle_chaser]

Donno. The Alt Factory has been an active guild with a lot of WoW Ladies in it. It's possible something big changed, but it's also possible that one person kicked for "do not represent the guild in a positive light" would show up to support another's post.

I have no horse in this race, but why would af_officers show up here with a comment like this if they just randomly kicked people out? Why would the AF officers care?

[penguinsane]

Yeah, this here is what sets off alarms for me, but I know Alt Factory has been around here for years. It seems strange that they left the OP so confused as to why this happened, but we only know half of it. For all we know, they could have (and probably have) done what they were able to, to prevent it from getting to this point.

That is... I want to believe that's true, but if the comments below are any indication, they really, really dropped the ball on this one.

[rowanf]

I sent in-game mail to an officer and waited a week before saying anything in wow-ladies. I was not inactive and no-one ever said anything to me to indicate a kick was being considered. It came as a total shock and devastation.

[af_officers]

We each have several alts and sometimes go a few days without playing our mains, as you know having been in the guild. Furthermore, we don't always check our in-game mail, which is why we ask that anyone who needs to reach us in-game whisper us instead. Should they be unable to do that for whatever reason, we ask that they contact us via email. Again, our officer email address is included on several pages and threads across our website.

Considering there are other means for getting in touch with us, this post was unnecessary. You tried reaching one officer via in-game mail, before posting a thread cautioning the members of a community -- which has done nothing but support us throughout the three years we've been active and to whom we owe a great deal of our success -- against ever joining us.

We appreciate that you have questions, but we will not be answering them here. We will happily discuss this further via email if you have anything you wish to share with us directly.

[sool]

hi, speaking from the perspective as an officer in my guild the onus should not be on the kicked guild member to find out why they were kicked. furthermore kicking people without an explanation and then after the fact explaining that you expected to be contacted via e-mail seems kind of bizarre, if not downright manipulative. if you leave your ex guildmates hanging like this its not unreasonable for them to bring it up someplace where they are nearly guaranteed to get a response.

[tasha_mac]

I'm afraid I have to agree with this. When I was a guild leader, regardless of why we kicked someone, they were always informed in some fashion. If it was for inactivity, we sent them an in-game mail and made a note for ourselves just in case they came back after another thirty days passed. If it was for poor behavior, we either waited for them to be online or arranged a meeting with them so they would be online at a certain time. And, unless they did something particularly heinous, we always gave them a chance to say a final goodbye and leave under their own power rather than be removed. Most of the people we decided to remove took that path, but, well...some didn't. But everyone always knew why. Maybe we were too nice, but it just felt like we gave people dignity even as we were asking them to leave.

Kicking people while they're offline is always in poor taste. You should rethink that policy at least. Many times, the people we removed didn't even realize they were doing something wrong, so, hopefully, because we told them that reason, they learned their lesson and changed. Or they didn't. It was up to them at that point, but at least we gave them the chance.

[riotlounge]

Speaking as the GM of Sool's guild I also have to agree.

First a faceless LJ account is strange in that it removes some level of accountability between whomever is running it if they are deciding to speak as it, versus using it as post-board. Secondly, yeah, always let the person know why they are being removed unless it's a particularly heinous event that needs to be dealt with swiftly (like racism or something in that nature) - otherwise, let the person leave under their own steam.

kicking people out and not letting them know at least what rule was violated is weird.

[tasha_mac]

I did want to mention the weirdness of a faceless LJ account but I didn't know if that was just an accepted thing that people did. Yeah, that weirds me out too. I know they have the guild officer face on, but it still feels like there's no accountability.

[kittysaysno]

Very much this.

[bastets_place]

I really agree with this. I've been a member of way too many guilds to count (some of them for all of five minutes, because of the comments that I saw in gchat during that time!) However, any guild where there was enough mutual interaction to make something like this worthy of conversation, a conversation was had, and a mutual decision was made. I can't say that there were never hurt feelings involved, but I can say that I knew what reasons existed, and I knew that I would be uncomfortable in the new way that the guild was being organized.

[harro_der]

All of this thread. I've been an officer in multiple guilds, my current for 5 years. We *always* make sure people know where they stand, if their behavior is out of line and what not. Being a raiding guild it's slightly different, but when we have kicked people they always get either a whisper from an officer and the offer to discuss it in detail or a note in the mail to their main about it. They are welcome to contact officers if they wish to talk about it further, but it's rare given that by then we've often talked to them at least twice about the problem.

I thought that was just common courtesy!

[rearranged]

Thank you for posting this comment. As someone with social anxiety (that affects my interaction with others in WoW), this entire post freaks me out. That a guild would kick someone who was active and seemed to enjoy being in the guild with NO attempt to tell them what they were doing wrong... and then attempt to ostracize the player in their own post... it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

(I say this as someone with a full roster on WrA, none of my characters in guilds because I have a hard time forming attachments... and if I found a great group and was randomly kicked, no warning, no explanation, I would be heartbroken, too. w_l is the ONLY WoW community I watch, would be the only one where I would be comfortable posting about such a topic)

[regen]

To be fair, the contact page DOES say people can send officers in-game mail. If its not a reliable method of communication for whatever reason, I would just remove it to avoid confusion in the future.