Geek Social Fallacies

[wombat_socho]

Went out to PRSFS last night; meeting was in the ass-end of Cheverly, practically in digex' back yard, and since I'd agreed to give one of the members a lift home to Vienna, it seemed only reasonable to get together with P, who is on her three-day weekend from working the midnight shift. The PRSFS meeting...hm. On the one hand, I like talking about

Comments

[polaris93]

You have something there. I have encountered more social awkwardness, gauche behavior, cluelessness, and social stupidity among s-f and other fans than just about anywhere else. Also, a disturbing number of them haven't even a nodding acquaintance with the world's great literature, even that of Edgar Allen Poe and Jules Verne, or any knowledge of most of the great s-f/fantasy/horror writers of the 1920s, 1930s, and early-to-mid 1940s, such as C. L. Moore, Henry Kuttner, Abraham Merritt, and others. Their fan interests are always confined to one or another extremely narrow sub-sub-sub-genre to the exclusion of all else. Thirty years ago, fans were always reading everything not nailed down, regardless of genre, though they had their preferences, of course. They'd read at least some literature -- Dickens, Melville, Hawthorne, Chekov, Dostoyefsky, Thomas Mann, Cervantes, others, whether in translation or in the original -- and a lot of classic poetry, and were well-acquainted with the world's mythologies. Now -- nada. Empty air save for those narrow interests. What's happened to these kids?

[wombat_socho]

I am inclined to think that the Internet, for all its failings, has actually helped anime fans avoid a lot of the social awkwardness that used to be a defining characteristic of SF fandom. I could be wrong about that and they might be just displaying a different kind of geek social failure. ;)

As to the ignorance of SF fans of anything outside their narrow subgenre of interest, including classic literature, this has its roots in two related issues, both broadly described as "the treason of the clerks", a phrase Jerry Pournelle used to describe the failure/refusal of the public schools and universities to transmit the culture of the Anglosphere to American kids of the 1960s and forward. Much like the public schools and universities, SF fans of the 1960s failed to teach the Star Trek and Star Wars fans who came into fandom about the rich literary history of SF and fantasy. That was forty years ago, and since then we've had more waves of fans who came to fandom by way of TV and movies, few of whom have any exposure to Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke, van Vogt and other writers from the Golden Age, much less the more obscure authors from the pre-Campbell era. It's not that the kids aren't interested - while I was involved in Space:Above and Beyond fandom, the Space Ready Reserve fan club put together a very well-received list of combat SF classic books. But there isn't really any kind of ongoing effort that I'm aware of to inform media fans and anime fans of the literary canon, and the poor social skills endemic in fandom aren't helping.

[polaris93]

I am inclined to think that the Internet, for all its failings, has actually helped anime fans avoid a lot of the social awkwardness that used to be a defining characteristic of SF fandom.

You could be right. Kids that are arrogant social boors nevertheless notice all the stuff out there on the Web, and are curious about it, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, or entertainment. They ask one another questions about it, exchanging information readily, and in the process they work out various modi vivendi faciliating social exchanges, learning to be social beings the hard way, but learning. Eventually they may even become real live boys (to paraphrase Pinocchio). :-)

As to the ignorance of SF fans of anything outside their narrow subgenre of interest, including classic literature, this has its roots in two related issues, both broadly described as "the treason of the clerks", a phrase Jerry Pournelle used to describe the failure/refusal of the public schools and universities to transmit the culture of the Anglosphere to American kids of the 1960s and forward. Much like the public schools and universities, SF fans of the 1960s failed to teach the Star Trek and Star Wars fans who came into fandom about the rich literary history of SF and fantasy. That was forty years ago, and since then we've had more waves of fans who came to fandom by way of TV and movies, few of whom have any exposure to Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke, van Vogt and other writers from the Golden Age, much less the more obscure authors from the pre-Campbell era. It's not that the kids aren't interested - while I was involved in Space:Above and Beyond fandom, the Space Ready Reserve fan club put together a very well-received list of combat SF classic books. But there isn't really any kind of ongoing effort that I'm aware of to inform media fans and anime fans of the literary canon, and the poor social skills endemic in fandom aren't helping.

The ongoing, ever-evolving failure of American education is heartbreaking. Certainly it has underwritten much of what's wrong with people born in this country from 1950 on. It could be countered with a strong drive by those of us who were heirs to all that great literature, Golden Age s-f and otherwise, to create Websites that would attract these youngsters and draw them in to check out what they've been missing, e.g., by posting lots of anime and other things that already interest and attract them, but also having discussions on, for example, the relationships between anime and older science fiction and other literature that might get them interested in checking out the latter. That sort of thing. Something.

[wombat_socho]

It could be countered with a strong drive by those of us who were heirs to all that great literature, Golden Age s-f and otherwise, to create Websites that would attract these youngsters and draw them in to check out what they've been missing, e.g., by posting lots of anime and other things that already interest and attract them, but also having discussions on, for example, the relationships between anime and older science fiction and other literature that might get them interested in checking out the latter. That sort of thing. Something.

I do this as much as I can at conventions that I go to, pushing for panels that discuss this sort of thing, and since most conventions are desperate for panels and panelists, I usually don't have too much trouble getting a slot and drawing a small crowd. :)

Also, for all that it occasionally gets maligned for being the pornography of violence, combat SF (at least that published by Baen) is conscious of its roots and frequently refers back to the classics; there was even a tribute anthology acknowledging Kipling's contributions to SF. David Drake often honors the Greek and Roman contributions to our culture; one wonders how many kids have been inspired to look deeper at the Roman Republic and Empire after reading his Ranks of Bronze, to name but one such book of his.

So there are efforts being made, but we're a pack, not a herd. :)

[polaris93]

I know. My literary partner likes anime, and loves science-fiction (which is what we collaborate on), and he's always prowling the Web to see what he can find. There's a great deal of good stuff out there, but very few of those under 30 are checking it out. They're either into porn, or reading and contributing to some really lousy fanfic, or otherwise totally oblivious to anything but the most superficial and witless stuff out there they can find/interact with. And these are the heirs of the future? We're doomed.

[haikujaguar]

I remember several Worldcons ago mentioning to the two graybeard authors manning SFWA's Bulletin table that I was enjoying Stanley Weinbaum and the response of the one who recognized the name was to snort and say, "That old stuff?"

:/

[wombat_socho]

Probably a relic of the 1960s New Wave who had no real idea who Weinbaum was. If he did know, then he was a jackass pure and simple.

[haikujaguar]

That dismissive attitude was unfortunately not rare. :(

[polaris93]

Hoo-boy! Weinbaum is one of the greatest science-fiction authors of all time. He was a contemporary of Olaf Stapledon, Henry Kuttner, C. L. Moore, and other greats of science fiction's Golden Age. If those two men weren't just teasing to see what you'd do, they have missed out on some of the best the 20th century has to offer. I am torn between feeling sorry for them and wanting to read them out for being so ignorant.

[haikujaguar]

Having attended some anime cons, I'm afraid to say anime fans are as prone to SF/F fannish behavior as SF/F fans.

[wombat_socho]

Having run some anime conventions, I am inclined to agree with you up to a point. I think that the younger fans are (on average) less prone to be socially retarded, while the older fans -who often got into anime through SF/F fandom- are just as messed up as they ever were.

[haikujaguar]

Hmm. That hasn't been my observation! Which is that the cons I've attended have mostly been composed of pre-teen and teenage girls, who while having some of the social understandings of girls, are taking cues on how to act from... somewhere bizarre. Certainly not normal. They take weird liberties. They consume porn that their dealers' rooms shouldn't be selling them, given how frequently they're underage. They act a lot like females at SF cons, in my experience.

Dunno. Maybe I've had a bad few runs. But it feels to me like anime wants to encourage a kind of permanent adolescence, probably because the genre seems to fetishize (particularly female) youth.

[wombat_socho]

There are certainly plenty of the young women you describe, who are most likely getting their behavior cues from popular culture here and their distorted perception of Japanese culture, particularly the behaviors considered "cute" in the latter.

They act a lot like females at SF cons, in my experience.
There are women at SF cons? ;)

[haikujaguar]

Point! -_-