Atheist Church and other stuff....
I orginally typed the following as a responce to a question on an "atheist church". And i really liked what i had to say......and i don't want to lose it. (although this brings up a interesting point on the purpose of posting it again. Hell, it's all bound to be destroyed anyway, right? what's the point of ANYTHING? and this is a very core part to my current understanding of reality. Giving something meaning....in and of itself has it's own meaning. Much like conciousness. This thing we call awarness is much more than chemical or cellular. Much more and much less. Because WE ARE this chemical and biological matrix. And i'm not talking about a "soul". Just.....an order of defining things. The order we give to reality is just as important as the order the physical laws of the universe. and we are in a unique point in our evolution. because we are inbetween biogenisis and psychogenisis. We just need to keep from destroying ourselves.
I am not an atheist. I WAS. And in most respects, i still am. I am able to understand where a non-theist comes from. And they are absolutly correct. However, i think now they are missing something. And it's not from an error in logical reasoning. more so a philosophic argument combined with a breakaway from the physical in that philosophic reasoning. A kind of "this is the matrix" thing. It's just hard as hell to leave the matrix. I'm still there. And that won't change. The physical universe is where we come from. and it's very important. But even as equally important is the universe within ourselves. The order we give to us. The reality we form has it's own intrensic value. Just as equal as the physical universe.
And if my old self read this....he would probably disagree with my idiotic wordings. But i assure you this does not come from an emotional reasoning. It comes from a very important philosophic idea on reality itself. And it is VERY complicated. and no, i don't think i'll still exist as me when i die. But it is not to say i still won't be. Just not as "me". but the information that encompassed "me" is not lost. And hopefully generations beyond will be able to do what i could not.
Anyway. Here is my little ramble. There will be condiments, refreshments, and videos afterwords:
OOoooooh......fun.
I've thought a lot about my own little imaginary version of an atheist church. Or at least a "church" for those people who are still bound by their inner need for a kind of spiritual release but have such minds that think much more abstractly and thus are not bound by traditional "rules" of religion.
Now......i've spent my entire life seeking answers. And i'm still looking to solve these impossible questions. But.....whenever i hear someone saying "why does an atheist pray" or "if there is no god, why are you doing this?"....i get a headache. Because it usually means that the person asking is either Religious or one of those rare self-reliant atheists (although they may not be "rare". it's just i don't think that way. and neither do most atheists i've met) And i respond with a simple question....depending on which category i suspect they are: Why do you have sex? or Why do you masterbate? Answer.....because it's hard wired in your brain. literally built on thousands of years of evolution. It feels good and by god it's in your nature.
Same thing when it comes to "church". It's masterbation. Just in a different way. Our brains constantly seek out ways to define reality. And by doing this it intigrates the rational side with the emotional side. And this process of defining reality often has the byproduct of a religious tendency. In fact, i just read an article about a month and a half ago that was linked from fark.com about how are brains are hard wired to be religious in nature.
So. Our prefrontal cortexes are great. But by god, we have to realize that there is more to us than just this part of our brains. We need to embrase all aspects of our complex neurobiology. And that means masterbating....in more ways than the obvious. Because physical masterbation is also "totally pointless" and we could could get some other things accomplished instead. but....in fact, it's not "totally pointless". It's just so to one part of our brains. Same thing for sleep. Why do we do it? We only have the faintest understanding. but it's absolutly necessary. It's just how we work.
So...the idea of atheist spirituality does not bother me more than the idea of a pornographic magazine. We need to understand that we as a species have finally just grasped the torch of conciousness. We are leading the way into even more complex biology by giving the cell "a soul". Not literally a "soul" but in symbolic terms. Could a flea understand the complexity of a human mind? Hells no! Same thing with us compared to our potential.
I need spirituality. Some part of me thinks it's a total waste, but the other part is being served a very real need. and it makes me sane. I myself can best be described as an agnostic mystic pagan humanist. I really dig the symbols used by neo-paganism. It celebrates gender, sexuality, the various states of matter, the sun and moon which define our realities, menstration cycles (13 a year, just like the moon), and it's loose. There is no dogma. I've met christian pagans, irish pagans, atheist pagans, and everything in between. I myself have a kind of understanding of spirituality derived from Carl Jung and Teilhard De Chardin. I think that the laws of physics are layed out perfectly to tend toward the evolution of complexity. toward the creation of macromolecules and life. But we trap outselves by thinking in physical terms. I could get into a really nice philosophic discussion of whether or not the surface you are currently residing is "real". But the truth is...it only exists within yourself. and.....as the evolution of matter goes.....from a trillionth of a second after the big bang to the formation of atoms to the formation of molecules and different elements and from there to the formation of even more complex molecules to the molecule of life to the various complex structures of life to multicellular organisms to animals to the formation of brains and the complexificaiton of them toward not just awareness but conciousness.....there is something there.
Conciousness itself has it's own virtue. And we do not know enough about the universe yet to proclaim absolute knowledge over it. We not only need to understand the physical universe, but the universe that exists within ourselves....within the doors of perception.
I have a friend who has taken mushrooms and DMT. And if you take your complex central nervous system seriously....and your own soul seriously....you should take a little "trip" within. My friend, after one of these heavy trips...when he was coming down....said that he was more so an atheist than he was ever before. He never really understood what it meant until he saw how he defines reality first hand. and yet...he never was so more convinced of "greater mind" (god) than ever. and he was very perplexed by what he was feeling because it went against everything he had accusomed himself to. (and if you ever come to las vegas....he'd love to meet you and help you to appreciate your own biology too.) (that was not supposed to be sexual).
As far as how this church should be conducted. No idea. A good place to start may lay in the word "humanistically". I actually think that there already is an "atheist church". They're called Unitarian Universalists. And while some may be total wackjobs, a great many of them are agnostic or non-theistic. But back to the church......as long as it accepts all ideas. and is founded on the beauty of each perspective.
as far as sermons....yeah. I think there needs to be a "figure head". a pack leader. someone who is able to discuss the moral or ethical princibles of a given story. if it's from the bible or even from a comic book. These issues and fundimentals behind these stories ring true for us. it doesn't matter if these stories are "true" or complete works of fiction. what matters is the ideas represented within the stories. and someone needs to be able to wrap this idea up into a much more palatable and emotional form. And then there can be a discussion. First the sermon...then a discussion afterwords where people may bring up points of contention or points of agreement or just points that may not have been covered.
and there needs to be ritual. Something familiar and also symbolic. Weddings are a good example of ritual. "ritual" literally means "by the numbers". Something that is counted on....something that doesn't change.
as far as what those rituals are.....well...i don't know. I myself take paganism for a giant symbolic outlook on science and human nature itself.
But that's just me. And there is more than one kind of spiritual atheist. Good luck...
now for those refreshments:
one of my favorite movies EVER....Waking life. here are some fun clips:
and for those who havn't seen it....a trailer:
and here is one that semi-explains "lifestream".
I almost didn't post the lifestream video because it really falls apart after 30 seconds or so. But it gives some nice visual/symbolic textures to this idea. Now....my responce to the "what happens to us after we die? where do we go?" would be "into what we came from....nothingness." But that only applies to our perspective of "me". However...i think the "lifestream/gaia" gives a good symbolic representation of what collective memory/mind is. The definition of reality being just as valid. Oh hell....it's so insanly complicated what i'm trying to get across. I'm not saying that we persist after death. I don't think so. Atheists and I agree on our fate. However, what i am saying is there is much more to reality that what we are able to extract order from.
I have actually DIED. Not literally....but in my mind. I've seen the tunnel. I've seen what my mind is capable of. And there is this really annoying....."thing"....that tied it all together. reality itself....was only this tube being fed to me. What mattered is the matrix that processed the information. And that matrix was only part of this "thing". it was magnificent the scale of it.
and this isn't coming from my emotional side. I want to stress this. This is coming from a completly objective perpective. This friend of mine knows better as well. He and I had the same ideas on this....but he never really understood it until he let go of all of reality and journeyed so far within himself as to be dead himself.
Anyway.
Enough. I really like this kind of subject matter. Despite my inability to describe my philosophy on reality.....i really really like it.
I am not an atheist. I WAS. And in most respects, i still am. I am able to understand where a non-theist comes from. And they are absolutly correct. However, i think now they are missing something. And it's not from an error in logical reasoning. more so a philosophic argument combined with a breakaway from the physical in that philosophic reasoning. A kind of "this is the matrix" thing. It's just hard as hell to leave the matrix. I'm still there. And that won't change. The physical universe is where we come from. and it's very important. But even as equally important is the universe within ourselves. The order we give to us. The reality we form has it's own intrensic value. Just as equal as the physical universe.
And if my old self read this....he would probably disagree with my idiotic wordings. But i assure you this does not come from an emotional reasoning. It comes from a very important philosophic idea on reality itself. And it is VERY complicated. and no, i don't think i'll still exist as me when i die. But it is not to say i still won't be. Just not as "me". but the information that encompassed "me" is not lost. And hopefully generations beyond will be able to do what i could not.
Anyway. Here is my little ramble. There will be condiments, refreshments, and videos afterwords:
OOoooooh......fun.
I've thought a lot about my own little imaginary version of an atheist church. Or at least a "church" for those people who are still bound by their inner need for a kind of spiritual release but have such minds that think much more abstractly and thus are not bound by traditional "rules" of religion.
Now......i've spent my entire life seeking answers. And i'm still looking to solve these impossible questions. But.....whenever i hear someone saying "why does an atheist pray" or "if there is no god, why are you doing this?"....i get a headache. Because it usually means that the person asking is either Religious or one of those rare self-reliant atheists (although they may not be "rare". it's just i don't think that way. and neither do most atheists i've met) And i respond with a simple question....depending on which category i suspect they are: Why do you have sex? or Why do you masterbate? Answer.....because it's hard wired in your brain. literally built on thousands of years of evolution. It feels good and by god it's in your nature.
Same thing when it comes to "church". It's masterbation. Just in a different way. Our brains constantly seek out ways to define reality. And by doing this it intigrates the rational side with the emotional side. And this process of defining reality often has the byproduct of a religious tendency. In fact, i just read an article about a month and a half ago that was linked from fark.com about how are brains are hard wired to be religious in nature.
So. Our prefrontal cortexes are great. But by god, we have to realize that there is more to us than just this part of our brains. We need to embrase all aspects of our complex neurobiology. And that means masterbating....in more ways than the obvious. Because physical masterbation is also "totally pointless" and we could could get some other things accomplished instead. but....in fact, it's not "totally pointless". It's just so to one part of our brains. Same thing for sleep. Why do we do it? We only have the faintest understanding. but it's absolutly necessary. It's just how we work.
So...the idea of atheist spirituality does not bother me more than the idea of a pornographic magazine. We need to understand that we as a species have finally just grasped the torch of conciousness. We are leading the way into even more complex biology by giving the cell "a soul". Not literally a "soul" but in symbolic terms. Could a flea understand the complexity of a human mind? Hells no! Same thing with us compared to our potential.
I need spirituality. Some part of me thinks it's a total waste, but the other part is being served a very real need. and it makes me sane. I myself can best be described as an agnostic mystic pagan humanist. I really dig the symbols used by neo-paganism. It celebrates gender, sexuality, the various states of matter, the sun and moon which define our realities, menstration cycles (13 a year, just like the moon), and it's loose. There is no dogma. I've met christian pagans, irish pagans, atheist pagans, and everything in between. I myself have a kind of understanding of spirituality derived from Carl Jung and Teilhard De Chardin. I think that the laws of physics are layed out perfectly to tend toward the evolution of complexity. toward the creation of macromolecules and life. But we trap outselves by thinking in physical terms. I could get into a really nice philosophic discussion of whether or not the surface you are currently residing is "real". But the truth is...it only exists within yourself. and.....as the evolution of matter goes.....from a trillionth of a second after the big bang to the formation of atoms to the formation of molecules and different elements and from there to the formation of even more complex molecules to the molecule of life to the various complex structures of life to multicellular organisms to animals to the formation of brains and the complexificaiton of them toward not just awareness but conciousness.....there is something there.
Conciousness itself has it's own virtue. And we do not know enough about the universe yet to proclaim absolute knowledge over it. We not only need to understand the physical universe, but the universe that exists within ourselves....within the doors of perception.
I have a friend who has taken mushrooms and DMT. And if you take your complex central nervous system seriously....and your own soul seriously....you should take a little "trip" within. My friend, after one of these heavy trips...when he was coming down....said that he was more so an atheist than he was ever before. He never really understood what it meant until he saw how he defines reality first hand. and yet...he never was so more convinced of "greater mind" (god) than ever. and he was very perplexed by what he was feeling because it went against everything he had accusomed himself to. (and if you ever come to las vegas....he'd love to meet you and help you to appreciate your own biology too.) (that was not supposed to be sexual).
As far as how this church should be conducted. No idea. A good place to start may lay in the word "humanistically". I actually think that there already is an "atheist church". They're called Unitarian Universalists. And while some may be total wackjobs, a great many of them are agnostic or non-theistic. But back to the church......as long as it accepts all ideas. and is founded on the beauty of each perspective.
as far as sermons....yeah. I think there needs to be a "figure head". a pack leader. someone who is able to discuss the moral or ethical princibles of a given story. if it's from the bible or even from a comic book. These issues and fundimentals behind these stories ring true for us. it doesn't matter if these stories are "true" or complete works of fiction. what matters is the ideas represented within the stories. and someone needs to be able to wrap this idea up into a much more palatable and emotional form. And then there can be a discussion. First the sermon...then a discussion afterwords where people may bring up points of contention or points of agreement or just points that may not have been covered.
and there needs to be ritual. Something familiar and also symbolic. Weddings are a good example of ritual. "ritual" literally means "by the numbers". Something that is counted on....something that doesn't change.
as far as what those rituals are.....well...i don't know. I myself take paganism for a giant symbolic outlook on science and human nature itself.
But that's just me. And there is more than one kind of spiritual atheist. Good luck...
now for those refreshments:
one of my favorite movies EVER....Waking life. here are some fun clips:
Click to viewand for those who havn't seen it....a trailer:
and here is one that semi-explains "lifestream".
I almost didn't post the lifestream video because it really falls apart after 30 seconds or so. But it gives some nice visual/symbolic textures to this idea. Now....my responce to the "what happens to us after we die? where do we go?" would be "into what we came from....nothingness." But that only applies to our perspective of "me". However...i think the "lifestream/gaia" gives a good symbolic representation of what collective memory/mind is. The definition of reality being just as valid. Oh hell....it's so insanly complicated what i'm trying to get across. I'm not saying that we persist after death. I don't think so. Atheists and I agree on our fate. However, what i am saying is there is much more to reality that what we are able to extract order from.
I have actually DIED. Not literally....but in my mind. I've seen the tunnel. I've seen what my mind is capable of. And there is this really annoying....."thing"....that tied it all together. reality itself....was only this tube being fed to me. What mattered is the matrix that processed the information. And that matrix was only part of this "thing". it was magnificent the scale of it.
and this isn't coming from my emotional side. I want to stress this. This is coming from a completly objective perpective. This friend of mine knows better as well. He and I had the same ideas on this....but he never really understood it until he let go of all of reality and journeyed so far within himself as to be dead himself.
Anyway.
Enough. I really like this kind of subject matter. Despite my inability to describe my philosophy on reality.....i really really like it.