Social Theory and Ideologies

Sep 22, 2004 12:35

lately, i've been having a discussion with someone online about social theory, millenialism, and a variety of other topics. recently, he equated (perhaps sloppily) democracy with bureaucracy, and my response was something that i wanted to put here for comment:
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wire_mother September 23 2004, 08:11:36 UTC
"human nature, while social, is also profoundly self-interested, and that this plays a major role in influencing social interactions"

this option. that is one of those things that probably would have been caught in a re-write. also, this is an excellent formulation of the idea. would you mind if i appropriate it should i ever re-write this article?

northern European ideas of Justice include some fairly radical concepts that we take for granted. the idea, for instance, that social punishments exist for more reason than to enforce the rights of the powerful or to maintain social order - the idea that social punishment can serve to rectify social imbalance. so, yes, weregild is one example, but the basic theory behind many northern European legal systems is fairly unique in general. it seems as though much of that theory is being slowly lost in a trend toward a philosophy more resembling Chinese Legalism, but it is still held by many to be nearly axiomatic.

when i was younger, i was a fairly staunch Libertarian, and i still retain some of those ideals. however, i have come to realize that the purpose of a society is not to reward the powerful with more power, but to minimize the ability of the powerful to prey on those with less power. environmentalism is indeed one excellent example of a situation in which the Libertarian ideals are sorely lacking in value. i suppose i am just no longer able to believe in a simple ideology (and Libertarianism is simple in essence: "there is nothing more important than freedom").

the thing about Capitalism that bothers me is that there are no widely disseminated free-market economic structures that are not Capitalism. many people seem to accept Capitalism as the best option simply because they like the idea of a free-market system, but can't imagine that there may be alternatives to the rule of Capital. the Social Credit economy, for instance, is one option that has been presented, or the ideas of Milton Friedman.

but now i am leaving the original mandate of this article, and discussing economics, which, while closely related, is not the same as social structuring.

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thewronghands September 26 2004, 00:02:02 UTC
Certainly, permission to appropriate my phrasing. I'm flattered. [grin]

I agree that incredibly reductionist ideologies often fail to correctly guide one's encounters with a complex world. You dust me in economics, though -- that's one of my personal weaknesses, and something I've been working on. (Breadwinner with loose grasp on money bad. Fiscally responsible breadwinner good.)

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rialian September 22 2005, 04:56:05 UTC
===Jumped over here through thewronghands posting...

===Have you looked at What Would Jefferson Do? : A Return to Democracy? It connects well to all this...

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wire_mother September 22 2005, 07:54:38 UTC
i have not read it, but i will look for a copy to read. the descriptions on amazon sound promising, and a foaf recommendation is always worth taking into account. :) heh, and i see that, in true small-world fashion, you also know Kai.

what do you think of the idea presented - basically, that a dynamic of Progressive and Conservative ideologies is better than any competing alternative, most of which can best be described as a breakdown of civilization?

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rialian September 26 2005, 18:14:38 UTC
===I think there is a bit of the truth to it, but I am not sure that refering to it as "conservative" is quite the right angle. I would say that it is far more the essence of being a "traditionalist" rather than being "conservative".

===I think all properly functioning cultures have an experimental, exploring side and a a refining, cautious side. (Case in point, I do not think that we right now have a "conservative" side right now..."both" main groups are rather progressive in a direction that does not speak of refinement and actual tradition. They are both far more interpretive than "conserving", if we are looking at actual cultural practice..)

===(And yes, I realize I may be nit-picking terminology here...I tend to have a bit of a hyperlinked association with words.)

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wire_mother September 26 2005, 22:32:30 UTC
ah, i mean to use "Conservative" in the actual sense, what you call "traditionalist", rather than the current, temporary usage in this particular location.

i mean, i'd hardly disqualify "Liberal" or "Democratic" simply because the Japanese Liberal Democratic party doesn't much resemble either concept.

my argument is precisely that of the first sentence of your second paragraph, that precisely that dialectic is the sign of a society which has not collapsed from whatever it is, something we might profitably term "civilization", or as you say, "properly functioning".

however, i'd disagree with your statement that we (i assume that you mean either the US specifically or Western Enlightenment Culture in general, either will do) don't have a Conservative side. it is precisely the bureaucracies which do the bulk of running our Western societies which acts as the Conservative element in the dialectic, while the ideological politics which drive the imaginations of the populace represent the Progressive element (whatever the specifics of those ideologies). however, we are in danger of losing that proper functioning, as some of the ideologies have been attempting to destroy that Conserving element - it's mostly "small-government" ideologies which tend to attack bureaucratics, but the tendency exists in other ideologies, as well.

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