Would it have been better if she said "prostitute"? I know there is the connotation of the word "whore", that is thrown as insults towards women. But the definition of a whore...is what you just said. A prostitute. And I think that is what Z was saying.
I would say a whore is a sex object for men...in the men's eyes. Sex object means a person viewed or treated as a means of sexual gratification. I'm not saying a whore wants to be seen as a sex object, I am saying that in this reality, they are seen that way. I know that prostitutes generally do not wish to be so, and a lot are forced to be...I majored in women's studies for 1.5 years.
And I replied to the person who wrote on their Facebook...She didn't call Gaga a whore, she said she dressed like one. Now, I think we can all agree that most prostitutes dress very provocatively in order to seduce men. Not, as you said, to feel sexy. It's all for the men.
And I understand what women who dress in that way mean when they say they are celebrating their sexuality...but to Joe Shmoe they look like a "common whore."
i get what you're saying about definitions, and maybe my points were moot in that regard, but i really don't see how calling another woman a whore, for any reason other than to describe that she has sex for money (in which case it would be better to say prostitute, imo), is not derogatory, sexist, and rude. i know she didn't say that gaga is a whore, but that she dresses like a whore - to me, this doesn't make a difference. if someone says "you dress like a slut" and "you are a slut" to anyone i would be equally offended, because the use of the word to bring shame to another woman is the core of the problem. language matters, and even though i disagree with her sentiment in general, if she had used terms that were less offensive or worded herself in a more eloquent way, this probably wouldn't have bothered me at all.
See, to me, I would see the difference if someone said "you dress like a prostitute" and "you are a prostitute" and I see the same difference if "prostitute" was swapped with "whore." Maybe not "slut" though...because slut is a pejorative term. Which "whore" can be...but I think in Z's case, it wasn't meant to be.
And to me, and I would think to most people who have seen prostitutes on the streets, these women dress a certain way. And to say that Gaga dresses like them...I don't see it as derogatory or rude. Because as I said in my first reply, I just saw a real prostitute on TV(filmed in the 90s) in an outfit just like one Gaga would wear.
from the way the article is written, she obviously feels a lot of contempt toward women who dress more provocatively, and i don't see how one can read the word whore as anything but pejorative in this context. "blast" and "rail" coupled with her word choice give a very clear image of intense dislike to me. i obviously can't be sure, but i feel like she'd be just as quick to use the word slut in place of whore.
like i've said before though, no matter the words she used, she still is promoting the message that feminine sexuality = good sexuality, and any other kind of more provocative, less "innocent" sexuality (talk about a conundrum) = bad sexuality. hector_rashbaum has made some good points, such as how her idea of the "right" kind of sexuality is her own, which...i can't understand how this isn't a problematic view.
For me, knowing how articles and media can spin people's words and create something outta nothing...I would say, take a lot of the journalist's words with a grain of salt. And the context is the journalists...who know's what Z's was.
I just saw a real prostitute on TV(filmed in the 90s) in an outfit just like one Gaga would wear.
LOL- it seems to me that if you go to any high school/college campus in America today, you will find at least a few people wearing ensembles that most hookers would find over the top. I used to work at a college (a Catholic one at that!) in a neighborhood that had its share of 'working' women, and honestly...my students were the ones with the shorter average skirt length...
and i've seen z is skirts that don't cover her ass, and yet here she is claiming that because she's still ~feminine~ while she's being provocative, she's setting a better example than pop artists who don't employ typical gender views so heavily. idk if this comment was just an offhand one, but it's these kinds of things keep the cycle going...
no, I know what you mean. she dresses provocatively by almost anyone's definition of the word- and again, that's her choice, props for her, but you need to *own* the choices you make. (you being z/the general you, not you personally. well, you do too, we all do, but you kwim).
And I understand what women who dress in that way mean when they say they are celebrating their sexuality...but to Joe Shmoe they look like a "common whore."
This. I don't think all women should wear burqas or muumuus (God knows I don't), but some (mostly younger) seem to not realize that, for better or worse, if you dress in a provocative manner, people are going to make certain assumptions about you, and are probably less likely to take you seriously. You can celebrate femininity/sexuality without miniskirts or booty shorts- again, if that's what people want to wear, far be it from me to stop them, but you can't have it both ways. You have to acknowledge the message you're sending. It's like people who post things publically on the internet and then get all butthurt when not everyone agrees with them 100% and thinks they're beautiful and wonderful- once you put out a statement in words/dress/etc. in a forum where you're interacting with other people, you need to be willing to accept that there will be consequences. Hell, I'm willing to accept that someone might disagree with what I just said, and that's cool- more power to them :)
"I don't think all women should wear burqas or muumuus (God knows I don't), but some (mostly younger) seem to not realize that, for better or worse, if you dress in a provocative manner, people are going to make certain assumptions about you, and are probably less likely to take you seriously. You can celebrate femininity/sexuality without miniskirts or booty shorts- again, if that's what people want to wear, far be it from me to stop them, but you can't have it both ways. You have to acknowledge the message you're sending."
This!!! Like, look beyond yourself and into the way society thinks. You know, I don't want women who dress scantily to be labelled as sluts, but they most likely will be. I'm not saying its right (no way!) its just the way it is. Not the way it should be and I think to myself "How do we combat this type of thinking?" and I don't see the answer in the way Gaga and such try. Even though I wish it were! And kudos to her for trying.
Sorry but I haven't typed so much since I got out of school. My brain is scrambled. I think I'm rambling. Hope it makes sense.
what do you think is the answer? besides gradually introducing to society the idea that women can be sexual without being labeled sluts or compared to whores, what else can be done? this is a genuine question, not a bait for more argument. gradual introduction seems to have been the approved course for all sorts of things in history, how is this any different?
I think that sexuality and women's rights and such are so intertwined with religion and morality that I honestly don't know if there is an answer. Oh, wish I didn't have to go because I love discussions like these. And I completely respect your opinions and every one else's.
But why is the over sexualization of a woman's body the answer certain women are going for?
it's not over sexualization, it's the idea that any woman can express her sexuality in any way she pleases, which spans the entire spectrum of completely covered and no mention of sexuality whatsoever to wearing next to nothing and proclaiming loudly that you love sex and being sexual. both are okay, but it's not right to do one and say the other is wrong.
But why is the over sexualization of a woman's body the answer certain women are going for?
THIS THIS THIS. To me, this isn't empowering women, it's exploiting them. But like I said above, I think celebrating your sexuality isn't necessarily about rocking your booty shorts. I don't know. At the risk of sounding condescending or like someone's grandma, I also think that the fine line between celebrating and what some might consider flaunting is something that (for most people) just becomes clearer with age. I know that my opinion on this has changed from, say, when I was in high school or early on in college. Now I'm pushing 30 and have been (common-law) married for over 8 years. And yeah, sometimes I wanna look 'good' aka sexy, but I don't feel the need to, shall we say, express my sexuality by wearing provocative clothing in the way I might have as a college freshman. I feel pretty secure in that area- but like I said, I think that's something that comes with age for most people...and maybe even comes with relationship status. If I was unmarried, would I dress differently? Maybe- it's an interesting thought.
i think age does bring different views about certain things (iirc a while ago i read an article on how views tend to grow more conservative over time and the example of how you felt ~proves that, in a loose sense of the word). but it's not about how one personally feels they should dress to express themselves or how much provocativeness they're comfortable with re: other people, it's more about the CHOICE for a woman to dress herself any way she pleases, specific to her age, relationship status, and personal choice. it may feel like oversexualization to you - or to me - but the choice is what should be focused on.
I would say a whore is a sex object for men...in the men's eyes. Sex object means a person viewed or treated as a means of sexual gratification. I'm not saying a whore wants to be seen as a sex object, I am saying that in this reality, they are seen that way. I know that prostitutes generally do not wish to be so, and a lot are forced to be...I majored in women's studies for 1.5 years.
And I replied to the person who wrote on their Facebook...She didn't call Gaga a whore, she said she dressed like one. Now, I think we can all agree that most prostitutes dress very provocatively in order to seduce men. Not, as you said, to feel sexy. It's all for the men.
And I understand what women who dress in that way mean when they say they are celebrating their sexuality...but to Joe Shmoe they look like a "common whore."
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And to me, and I would think to most people who have seen prostitutes on the streets, these women dress a certain way. And to say that Gaga dresses like them...I don't see it as derogatory or rude. Because as I said in my first reply, I just saw a real prostitute on TV(filmed in the 90s) in an outfit just like one Gaga would wear.
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like i've said before though, no matter the words she used, she still is promoting the message that feminine sexuality = good sexuality, and any other kind of more provocative, less "innocent" sexuality (talk about a conundrum) = bad sexuality. hector_rashbaum has made some good points, such as how her idea of the "right" kind of sexuality is her own, which...i can't understand how this isn't a problematic view.
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LOL- it seems to me that if you go to any high school/college campus in America today, you will find at least a few people wearing ensembles that most hookers would find over the top. I used to work at a college (a Catholic one at that!) in a neighborhood that had its share of 'working' women, and honestly...my students were the ones with the shorter average skirt length...
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This. I don't think all women should wear burqas or muumuus (God knows I don't), but some (mostly younger) seem to not realize that, for better or worse, if you dress in a provocative manner, people are going to make certain assumptions about you, and are probably less likely to take you seriously. You can celebrate femininity/sexuality without miniskirts or booty shorts- again, if that's what people want to wear, far be it from me to stop them, but you can't have it both ways. You have to acknowledge the message you're sending. It's like people who post things publically on the internet and then get all butthurt when not everyone agrees with them 100% and thinks they're beautiful and wonderful- once you put out a statement in words/dress/etc. in a forum where you're interacting with other people, you need to be willing to accept that there will be consequences. Hell, I'm willing to accept that someone might disagree with what I just said, and that's cool- more power to them :)
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This!!! Like, look beyond yourself and into the way society thinks. You know, I don't want women who dress scantily to be labelled as sluts, but they most likely will be. I'm not saying its right (no way!) its just the way it is. Not the way it should be and I think to myself "How do we combat this type of thinking?" and I don't see the answer in the way Gaga and such try. Even though I wish it were! And kudos to her for trying.
Sorry but I haven't typed so much since I got out of school. My brain is scrambled. I think I'm rambling. Hope it makes sense.
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But why is the over sexualization of a woman's body the answer certain women are going for?
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THIS THIS THIS. To me, this isn't empowering women, it's exploiting them. But like I said above, I think celebrating your sexuality isn't necessarily about rocking your booty shorts. I don't know. At the risk of sounding condescending or like someone's grandma, I also think that the fine line between celebrating and what some might consider flaunting is something that (for most people) just becomes clearer with age. I know that my opinion on this has changed from, say, when I was in high school or early on in college. Now I'm pushing 30 and have been (common-law) married for over 8 years. And yeah, sometimes I wanna look 'good' aka sexy, but I don't feel the need to, shall we say, express my sexuality by wearing provocative clothing in the way I might have as a college freshman. I feel pretty secure in that area- but like I said, I think that's something that comes with age for most people...and maybe even comes with relationship status. If I was unmarried, would I dress differently? Maybe- it's an interesting thought.
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