Ambiguity is for losers- The Uchiha Sasuke contemplation post

[weekend_exile]

Here's a subject that I've been trolled incessantly by (and have counter-trolled, I admit) ever since the first Sasuke and Sai arc (chapters 282-310 in the manga, episodes 33-53 holy shit that's a lot in the anime) of Naruto Shippuden: why certain fans (including myself) are so unfailingly faithful to Sasuke when he clearly is a massive penis

Comments

[kalishaka]

I honestly think Sasuke's inherent darkness, his focus on growing up in love and turning it into hate which contrasts directly with Naruto's growing up in hate and turning it into love, is exactly what makes him interesting. The Part I arc lets you know a broken child, who, without his permission, forms connections, forms a new family. He lets himself be distracted from his personal mission to kill Itachi because it seems something more disconnected from his reality. All of that gets shattered upon Itachi's return. Sasuke is overcome by guilt. Not just for not yet being strong enough to murder Itachi, not just for putting that mission on hold...almost forgetting it at times, but also for forming new connections, for moving on. Essentially this is a child who hates himself for being able to live, for being able to love, to form friendships, when everyone he had loved and been connected to was murdered. And in the end, upon his exit, he forms the code he currently lives by with his actions at the Valley of the End. He will go as far as he must to win, to meet his goals, to be stronger, to destroy that which haunts him, but there is a line he will not cross. He will not be what he sees Itachi as, a cold-blooded murderer. (And yes, arguably I would say it stems from his relationship with Naruto but I still think the point stands).

Cue Sasuke growing up. I think we can all agree he's an ass. I think we can all agree he does stupid stupid things. And we are all, somewhere, deep down, hoping he will let himself be the child he once was, the person he could have been. We cannot let that go, just like Naruto never can, because the manga introduces us to Sasuke through Naruto's eyes. We are meant to feel that way. Sasuke has no connections to Konoha, outside of his former teammates, and he never did post the murder of his family. There is no reason for him to show loyalty to the village that ruined his life in more ways than one. And he has never pretended to have a goal that wasn't completely wrapped up into his own wants or needs. The very reason he wanted to become a ninja wasn't for glory or pride or to save the world, it was to murder his own brother. The fact Sasuke isn't completely without a moral compass, the fact he can and does show emotion, occasional Sasuke-fied compassion, is a marvel. The fact that upon achieving his revenge it was not at all satisfying and just made things worse, is meant to remind us that yes, Sasuke is on the wrong road, and somewhere inside that head of his, he knows that, but he cannot turn back time. He cannot change the choices he made. Knows that given the chance he would still walk the same road. So all he can do, is limit his damage. And he does, at times.

(I'd give more specific later examples, but I just delved back into this fandom after a couple years break, and I've been rereading and thus am more current with Part I and the very beginnings of Part II, sorry).

[weekend_exile]

I agree, there's quite a large fanbase asking for the Sasuke we all knew and loved (because we did, unequivocally, way more than we loved Naruto himself at times) back, that the child who was flawed but had a streak of decency constantly fighting through. And yes, Itachi showing up drastically changed Sasuke's attitude to everyone around him, though that might have something to do with the fact that Itachi explicitly stated that Sasuke wasn't worth his time. Like you said, guilt for being a child for once and liking it, and possibly jealousy too, since, after all, newly-formed bonds notwithstanding, Itachi is the center of Sasuke's universe.

But here's something that I've been convinced of, ever since the get-go: that Sasuke is decisive to a fault. He's not a deuteragonist for nothing; he has his own convictions, and though they're liable to change (and how) he's strong-willed and stubborn and will follow any task he's set for himself through. The only way to sway him is to manipulate said convictions, and that's what everyone who wants to use him quite happily does.

I have no intention of waxing poetic about Sasuke's 'good' side (recent rants do not qualify 'cause I said so) because as far as I'm concerned, no one's been in the grey more firmly and thoroughly as Uchiha Sasuke. I think he's come to the stage where the means are more than justified by the end; a friend I frequently argue with insists that what Sasuke's doing is wrong, but in my opinion (and this is something of an oversimplification) he is not. This is where you and I disagree, if only mildly: I believe that, by consistently doing what Sasuke believed was right, Sasuke has done nothing wrong. He killed his mentor, yes, but Orochimaru was almost cartoonishly evil and Sasuke always knew that. I'm not saying he did it for the good of mankind; I'm saying the fact that he wouldn't have to surrender his body to someone who was weaker than him factored in as much as his determination to kill Orochimaru for the sake of killing Orochimaru.

His actions speak louder than words, and Sasuke's actions, if not irreproachable, are entirely justifiable. I don't think it's realistic for him to revert back to the person he was, nor to conform with what the series has deemed the right mindset to have. He is self-serving only in the sense that he puts what he thinks needs to be done (his ambitions, one could call them, if one was feeling particularly unsympathetic) before his own feelings.

That said, welcome back to the fandom! Much hearts and love, and your opinions made me reconsider a lot of my preconceptions and squee in delight when you agreed :D

[kalishaka]

I actually really agree with most of this assessment, so I might have just worded myself a bit off...but like I believe in Sasuke's mind he feels that he has made all the choices he would have made and wouldn't change a bit of that. I guess I think, there is something about his younger self and who he is now that brings up the idea of who Sasuke wanted to be and who he needed to be. And I think those two ideals which initially seemed to be exactly the same, have become two very different things. Because I think, in child-like naivety, Sasuke believed that once he murdered his brother, avenged his clan, he would come back and reform what was taken from him. Now, this quickly shifts and mutates as he grows, even before he leaves Konoha, I think he already knows that isn't going to be what happens, making his first choice of need versus want. And I think that defines his moral compass in a lot of ways. He doesn't want to kill, he needs to kill. He needed to avenge his clan. He needed to gain power. He needed to keep his body. And I think in a lot of ways that lends itself to his protection of innocent lives.

Actually a good random comparison, since like I said, I just finished Part I in my re-read, might be Gaara. While I know as a character at the time he was meant to represent a foil for what Naruto could have been with the nine-tails, I think it is also a pure example (for the time) of a person who kills for the sake of killing. And then with Orochimaru, a person whose need for power has superseded all else. In both cases it is a want for killing and a want for power. Whereas Sasuke sees his in terms of need.

I don't know if any of that made sense, but now you've filled me with thoughts and feels. And honestly, I really love the greyness of Sasuke's character as well. I wouldn't believe the journey of sudden return, or a sudden reformation to who he was before. He let go of his wants as a child. Everything since then has been defined by need. And to change that, to revert, would mean that he thought that he had a choice to not do what he has done, and I don't believe that to be the case.

[weekend_exile]

This particular subject tends to devolve into nothing more than a battle of semantics and leaving me feeling like a lawyer and a massive dick, so apologies for any misunderstandings.:) And we're both coming from the same place, clearly, so yay for Sasuke. ^_^

From what I've read, most people are of the opinion that Sasuke has to 'redeem' himself from the stuff he's done (that thing with Karin comes to mind, hope this isn't spoilery for you) and that the only way he can do that is by coming home and reverting back to the angel-faced prickly bastard with a heart of gold that he was when he was twelve. But, as you pointed out, this is ridiculous. Sasuke realized early on that he had to sacrifice what he wants, what he would like to be, in favor of what he needed to do. What's admirable is that he kept a clear vision of said goals, and never strayed beyond that. I know he's been called heartless for putting his/his clan's/his brother's revenge before other human lives (again, Karin) but he only does so when he has absolutely no other choice. I know, the ideal hero would have fallen to his knees sobbing 'oh you meanie, why did you use my dumb fangirl as a shield now I can't kill you and fulfill my driving motivation, which, by the way, is all I've been trained for, me being a shinobi and all.'

Oh yeah, Gaara. For some reason (whoops, possible spoilers ahead) his speech at the Five Kage summit kind of drove me up the wall. He kept going on and on about how Sasuke is 'lost in the darkness' and 'forgive me Naruto but Sasuke is lost to us'. THIS IS THE GUY WHO USED TO SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF SEASONED JOUNIN BY HIS BLOODLUST. Like you said, before his fluffy moe-version kicked in, he used to KILL JUST FOR THE LULZ. Again, that difference between total innocence and innocence of action; GAARA KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE FOR NO REASON. SASUKE DID NOT. BUTT OFF, REHABILITATED!GAARA. YOU HAVE NO ROOM TO JUDGE.

Getting worked up now ;)

And Orochimaru, yes. He was always shown as the bad guy because he made no secret of his lust for immortality. That's practically decadence, the very opposite of Sasuke's need for power.

It made perfect sense. What we can agree on is that Sasuke's been defined by the goals he or others around him have set for him, and the need to fulfill those goals. :)

[kalishaka]

Ugh yes! I forgot all about that speech from Gaara! I approve of the Caps!Lock of rage!

Thanks for letting me ramble about Sasuke for a while. It was fun! (Most of the people I normally talk to about fandom things just refer to this series as "the magical gay ninjas" and I get no where...it is depressing.)

[weekend_exile]

I was throwing things at my screen when I watched the anime episode of the hypocrite!Gaara scene (which was rife with flashbacks and his homolust for Naruto, making me hate NaruGaa more than ever)

Ramble at me all you want! I'm determined to be loud and obnoxious about my pretty much unconditional love for Sasuke, it's good to have someone who makes sense ranting too ^_^

Magical gay ninjas, omg. For some reason, Itachi's epic hair flip comes to mind.

[kalishaka]

UGH! YES! Someone else who hates NaruGaara! It is the worst. It makes me crazy!

Hah! Yes! Now I am picturing a hair commercial for all of them.

[weekend_exile]

What's worse is I stumbled across this non-AU SasuNaru that had a (perfectly serious) cameo by sex guru!Gaara. I can't unknow that shit, now I'm scarred forever. And Gaara's obsession with Naruto is verging on the creepy. As a whole, Gaara lost a lot of my sympathy when he made that 'Sasuke you must come to the light' speech. And then I read a high school GaaNaru AU that made me want to bury my head in the ground like an ostrich and not come out until the bad feels had gone away. GaaNaru just doesn't work for me.

The Uchihas have such pretty lustrous hair. I'm sure one of them had a shampoo contract at some point.

[kalishaka]

*blinks* Sex Guru!Gaara? I can't unknow this. Why are you telling me these things? Also, can I just whine about my inability to find more recent SasuNaru that doesn't feel completely out of character. I also might just really want an AU where Naruto gives into the pain Konoha has caused him, and he and Sasuke raze it to the ground out of mutual need for justice and then they become ninja vigilantes. (I like my bbs dark...and twisted...dependent upon their own morality.)

This Shampoo commercial is just making miss Neji and his luscious locks.

[weekend_exile]

Oh, now you've gone and done it.

NEJIEEE WHYWHYWHYWHY COME BACK YOU BYAKUGAN EQUIPPED ASSHOLE WE MISS YOU

And yes, I take delight in spreading the misery that is sex guru!Gaara. It gave me nightmares for weeks. And yeah, SasuNaru has become a dump of weird adjectives and unconvincing plots. If it's any help, here's a fic that's gleefully non canon-compliant but is tremendously well-written: In Good Company by fool.0. How sad is it that even now, the fic I consider the best SasuNaru ever was written before Tobi was officially unmasked? This fic has a very good characterization of Sasuke, WHICH IS MORE THAN I CAN SAY FOR THE REST OF THEM FICS.

And I made grabby hands at my screen when you described that AU, I WANT I WANT I WANT. YOU HAVE JUST SUMMARIZED THE PENULTIMATE FIC FOR THE SASUNARU FANDOM. ONCE SOMEONE WRITES THAT, WE MIGHT AS WELL SHUT DOWN. I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT

[kalishaka]

NEJI! I still weep. Almost daily.

Ugh! I love their stuff...and somehow have not read this yet. So, all my love to you!

I have been toying with the idea for a while. I just know I'll end up starting to write it and then bail after like 3,000 words because I am lazy like that and much prefer forming it in my head than the actual work of writing it. But I just want that AU so badly. Because I don't think it would be beyond a stretch to push Naruto's character to a breaking point with his home, hard yes, but if handled correctly I think it could be kept in character. I'm in debate on when in the timeline I would want the break to occur as well. Essentially I think in my head canon I could adapt it with a more current Naruto, who faces a similar massacre of those close to him, as the village elders move to isolate him to better 'control' him and/or murder him out of fear of him. And in the process if would lead to him turning to Sasuke, the only person that could understand that over whelming need to avenge, to take back what was stolen, to right what has gone wrong. The more I think about it the more dangerous this gets. I need it in my life.

[weekend_exile]

Ooh, interesting idea. Naruto hasn't experienced that side of the village elders, and even though he knows what they made Itachi do, it's an abstract concept in his head because he wants to see the good in everyone and this is the direct opposite. KILL OFF THE HYUUGA CLAN, LET'S SEE HOW MUCH NARUTO LOVES HIS VILLAGE THEN.

I'm sorry. I get carried away. It's embarrassing.

And, and. Maybe a personal injury to Naruto (locking him up, as you suggested, supposedly for 'the good of the village') won't affect him as badly. I can imagine him getting depressed and then determining to change the village and its system. That's what Sasuke's campaigning for right now in the manga, so you could set it after Sasuke coming up with his Hokage idea.

OR, like I said before, if the injustice was done to someone else (not necessarily another clan massacre, but maybe an individual who was deemed a 'threat' to Konoha and was killed as ordered by the elders; someone Naruto shared one of his infamous bonds with) then I see Naruto arguing and that person being killed anyway and Naruto despairing and realizing that Konoha was f'd up, and subsequently joining Sasuke in his smash-Konoha mission.

Now you've sucked me in. -_-

[kalishaka]

Mission successful!

Ugh I love it. A massacre of the Hyuuga, the death of someone like HInata....

Oh god you made it better. Ugh. I need to finish my re-read and catch up and see what my brain comes up with.

(Though then I would be eternally bitter at my own brain and yours because my Hyuuga's are my everything. So Naruto and I can have that in common.)

[weekend_exile]

The Hyuugas seem like a slightly less dysfunctional version of the Uchihas, and very very lovable. WHICH IS WHY YOU SHOULD KILL THEM. SEND NARUTO OFF THE DEEP END.

Heh heh. Now I can go sleep.

[ylmik_wisty]

Sorry to butt in but your whole "Naruto gives in to his darker feelings and razes Konoha" was done in a beautifully written incomplete agonizing fic by gelfling called "Attraction", however, there is no lovely dark Sasuke/Naruto teamwork. Naruto actually has Sasuke captive and tortures him for a bit (hence description of agonizing); Sasuke has the same drive and focus that you (and I) really love and he actually never left Konoha because NARUTO left and that sort of derailed events, and he and Naruto are actually on reversed sides. I only mention this if you want to explore a shitty Naruto who gave into bitterness and feels guilty deep deep down and STILL wants to be shiny and special in Sasuke's eyes. And Sasuke has such a strong sense of justice and actually points out the things you guys have been saying when Naruto insists they aren't so different: he doesn't kill for fun.

That fic sort of scarred me so explore to your own discretion. But thought I would throw it out into the ring.

(Now to really reply to the post!)

[weekend_exile]

Welcome! kalishaka's summary made me really need a story where Naruto's all rape-facey and bloodstainey. Canon Naruto's an adorable bundle of orange and goodwill, but what you described has struck me as the perfect not-quite role reversal and I am running off to read it now. Right now.