Special Exceptions for Safari

[cyclotron]

I know people swear up n down about CSS. But having used it exclusively for 10 months now, its a piece of crap. Only because every single browser needs special rules. I didnt need that with tables ... development time has more than doubled

Comments

[ninsun]

I have to agree with you. I just took a web design class and all we learned was CSS. I think tables are MUCH better.

to you and the OP

[kevinblanchard]

Since many of the browser makers haven't fully implemented CSS properly it can be an issue. That said, yes tables can be easier though it's considered bad coding. Though, every developer has to balance between integrity, quality and time. I do realize sometimes time is a big factor, and so sometimes you have to sacrifice things. I've been there before myself

Re: to you and the OP

[cyclotron]

Considered bad coding by whom? Search engines? Most of these sites won't get more than 10 visitors a week due to the nature of the industry.

Re: to you and the OP

[kevinblanchard]

Not search engines. Poor coding as far as the standards put forth by the development community. It's not a solid line but certain things tend to be considered poor coding. To most web developers, using tables instead of CSS is like a programmer using GOTOs

[yaauie]

In my current project use PHP to get the browser info and serve the CSS based on this.

[tactful_cactus]

Well, my first piece of advice would be to design first for Firefox, then Safari, then IE (in declining order of standards compliance). Then tweak accordingly. CSS is definitely a lot fussier to get right than tables, but in the long run, it will save you mucho time and energy, as it will allow you to update the look and layout of your entire site with just one file. Not only that, but it cleans up your code tremendously and allows your html to be based on semantic (actual content in the actual order it's supposed to be in if you were to read it like a page of text). Browser are coming around compliance-wise, and hopefully things will keep getting easier. Actually, one of the more difficult issues has been that IE is becoming more compliant, and that threw everyone's custom IE tweaks into a headspin!

I have no idea what your Safari/css issue is... I saw you post earlier about that and it's very bizarre. I've never had that problem.

[cyclotron]

The one important goal of my work is to make it look good. Most of these sites dont get enough traffic to worry about loading and I keep the site file sizes bearable for dial-up. I'm old school.

I do start with FireFox. In fact, I rarely have to use special code for IE now because I avoid using the width feature.

In 10 months what I have learned is, unless I just like to torture myself, redesigning something is easier if I start from scratch. Redesigns mean new structure, nav, and content. So the whole "CSS Zen Garden exercise" is never used. Seems like only blogs benefit from this ability.

This is a different website, different Safari issue. Or, yet another Safari issue.

[tactful_cactus]

...redesigning something is easier if I start from scratch...

Very true in some situations. Redesigning something that wasn't built to be redesigned is certainly easier when you start from scratch (I'm in this boat right now, trying to get a 200+ page website built by somebody else up to par). But if you start from scratch with modular design in mind, it's very easy to redesign in the future.

If you're just doing one-offs that are rarely updated, or viewed for that matter, I guess it's a moot point.

[cyclotron]

For sites that reuse the same template - like blogs CSS is great. And if you are designing a 100 page site, I hope you are using some kind of content management. If the site is large enough, I'll at least use PHP to insert the nav etc. OR Dreamweaver templates.

What I am talkingaboput is when a non-blog site says "we need to redesign." Everything changes. You can't really do that with CSS unless everything has a unique tag or means of identifying it. Just look at doing the CSS for MySpace. The really cool profiles simply hide the original code and insert new code. They don't mess with trying to manipulate existing code. ...Inserting new code is starting from scratch.

* and none of the CSS advocates have answered the problem of loading special CSS for Safari.

* note I am still using CSS. I am trying to find a CSS solution. But it's looking like Javascript or PHP will be necessary. That's hardly more efficient than simply using HTML. If I had used tables, this would have been done a week ago.

[adrexia]

Can we see the page?

Usually Safari behaves rather well with css. At least as well as Firefox... usually if one works they both do.

But if you need to detect the browser and serve different css, you will probably need scripting. Try php, or javascript or something. Do a search, and you should find something on it.

[angstjunkie]

I do CSS for life (even if I do a table layout) and the majority of the problems I've had have been that Firefox and Safari look great, but IE messes up. Actually, I can't think of an instance where IE wasn't the problem.