my belief is that he will be a much more effective president than john mccain - which is essentially, what we're voting to decide right now. i'm not denying that obama is, first and foremost - a politician....or that he is imperfect, or that we have a LONG, LONG way to go before our country (and the people in it) are truly free and "democratic" - in every aspect of our lives (myself def included). i agree that creating a "cult of personality" around him (or anyone for that matter) is a huge mistake - that expecting a figurehead to create miracles is ridiculous. but where you and i can't seem to see eye to eye is that i do not believe that large-scale-change is going to happen overnight. you are constantly trying to get people to become more aware of the injustices that exist in the world, and for the first time since we've been alive, people are PAYING ATTENTION! i find it inspiring to listen to 9 year old kids talk to each other about what they think about same-sex rights, or what they think would be "such a cool change" about the world. and i hope, no matter what the outcome - obama or not, that people continue to pay attention. i hope that issue by issue, people keep caring and thinking and talking and acting in accordance with their beliefs about war, gay marriage, racism, corporate control, womens rights, etc. this is a tiny step, and i know you don't think it is significant, but i do.
I am a gradualist and don't think changes will happen overnight. that's a misrepresentation of my views. I am just sick of people claiming obama represents that change without looking at his voting record in congress and without acknowledging the fact that protesters exercising their right to free speech were unnecessarily beaten and arrested outside of the democratic national convention, but only the police brutality at the RNC was covered. rights aren't bestowed unto us by the almighty government and its benevolent friends in the corporate world, we have rights naturally as human beings, and neither mccain nor obama fully respect them. so all this enthusiasm is for something that isn't even respectful of people's right to think differently and present new ideas outside of the system, which should be fundamentally possible in a healthy democracy. These past few months I've been told to shut up and been treated by total shit by obama supporters (not necessarily you, but my entire family just ganged up on me at the dinner table, screaming at me and calling me a fucking idiot who doesn't belong in this family), and yet I remember a time when even you yourself were skeptical. so where's the cutoff? how is it that all of a sudden there's a difference between you and me so extreme that I'm all of a sudden this huge buzzkill attempting to crush kids hopes? I have a lot of hope, just not for this system. even john f. kennedy invaded the bay of pigs. like you said, they're human and they're imperfect, so why do we have a system that can be so overrun by one person's imperfections, why don't we all run the country? but people don't understand my perspective as one of hope, they see it as total cynicism, so I've taught myself to stop talking and suppress my own view of the world, which in my view is fairly well informed and not based on emotional reasoning... its not like chomsky, one of the most widely-read and well-respected authors on US foreign policy, doesn't agree, but I won't appeal to his authority because I feel I should have a right to view things this way no matter what as long as its based on logical observations. I already acknowledge obama is a tiny step in a mile long race, and I acknowledge that the step has been made, but I think its about time people start thinking about the next 2 or 3 steps and quit patting themselves on the back for writing some shit on a piece of paper once every four years.
Re: on hope.vivantvivantNovember 5 2008, 07:49:10 UTC
however accurate/inaccurate this view may be, i just don't believe that one person's imperfections are enough to destroy a country - just as i don't believe one person is enough to solve all of its problems. i understand you don't believe in this system, but that isn't the aspect that i find cynical. in andrew-brain, i understand that its probably the opposite, as it requires more faith in people's ideas as individuals to expect them to participate directly (and i believe i have always said this). i do, and have always greatly respected your world view, as you often educate me about injustices that exist within our current system that i am often unaware of, including the censorship of important/fucked up events like @ the democratic convention (which is fucked up and wrong). I hope you continue to express yourself and voice what you believe is right (because it IS your right - and im sorry that your family reacted that way), as i have always greatly benefited from these types of discussions with you, and i think others do too . i think the "cutoff" is your outlook on the positivity that exists within the system itself - which, whether you embrace it or not, discredits the efforts of many people who are trying to make a difference as best they know how. i understand that you don't think that people voting or rallying behind a political party is "true" progress or change...and i know it doesnt solve/directly address all of the problems that you are concerned with - but why does that mean that the bits that ARE positive have to be completely dismissed? the women's suffrage movement, for example, granted women the right to vote, but has still not impacted the world enough to create equality between sexes, even today....but does that mean that the movement and all of the efforts poured into it were all in vain/a total failure? no way! should i discredit the fact that we have just elected an african american president, solely because i don't agree with his views on same-sex marriage/opinions all across the board? should i completely dismiss THAT huge aspect of positive change because we havent solved every injustice at once? these are totally broad examples, but you get the point.
i agree in that i hope people continue to have an interest in whats going to happen next , and that they continue to care about whats going on in the world..... but i dont think its wrong of anyone to be happy that a tiny step has been made.
it's not my intention to discredit people's efforts of working within the system. like I said, it's a step in the right direction, but its a mile long race. I'm happy for people who really feel like they're really being represented by obama, and for those who really feel as though they've become part of something historic today. I simply don't feel part of that, in fact I feel completely hollow and alone just as I knew I would. I feel like a lot of my efforts as an activist are heavily subverted and misconstrued during these times, and anyone else trying to work outside of the system is basically stomped on by the swell of pro-obama rhetoric. a significant portion of the progressive movement in general has been co-opted by the democratic party where it used to have a more objective outlook on the actions of both parties. this is actually really dangerous for our society, as it creates a bias in favor of the democratic party in the same sense that fox news and cnn drummed up the policies of the republican party 8 years ago. there is a decrease in objective analysis of political policy and an increase in observation of image. what obama looks like and acts like means more than the fact that he was just as much a supporter of the patriot act as bush, mccain, et al.
I wouldn't want be represented by obama or any of these other people, and yet a lot of people have been talking to me today as though they've been doing me in particular some huge favor, as though my activism will be easier because the country is on my side now. my side? really? among other things, I am an anti-war activist. most people are operating under the misconception that obama is an anti-war candidate.. although he has clearly stated that he's not. it's not really his fault, it's the fault of the people who follow him. if he indeed violates the national sovereignty of pakistan then he could very well trigger a nuclear conflict, which I certainly hope does not happen, but my question is why is that on nobody's mind right now? why did that not come up during the election process? because we had to beat mccain, sure. but who is on his ass now? a chunk of progressives who would normally be on the presidents ass probably won't be, because of obamania or whatever. and people like me who aren't into it are facing a lot more shit than usual because we aren't jumping on the "change train".
as far as the 'personal imperfections' go, I think that the unchecked executive branch has thrived for the past 8 years on one person's imperfections: it was george w. bush's personal vendettas about iraq and general incompetence that allowed him to be pushed into an obviously unjust war. granted, there was a clear-cut economic and political system manufacturing a necessity for that war, but his personal imperfections played a large enough part in enabling those entitites to have control over this country's policy. in terms of obama, he has an affection for the state of israel that has been characteristic of every president elect after jimmy carter, despite their near-genocidal decimation of the state of palestine (the kill ratio in the israel/palestine conflict is 40 palestinians dead for every israeli, and yet somehow they couldn't be practicing state-sponsored terrorism because they're on our side). it sounds like more than a personal flaw to me actually, and I simply can't get excited for this, I'm sorry.
I am excited that he's the first black president, sure, and that he appears to think in a far more balanced way than bush or mccain, but I don't think that's a victory. I think that celebrating that is like celebrating getting punched in the face instead of shot in the foot. but again, that's just me, and just how I'm experiencing all this. I'm glad everyone else is having a good time, though. seriously. more power to you.
I'll be over here trying to bring up all that shit the president doesn't care about and who knows, there might be a change in how the state reacts to it. the best I can hope is that barack is reasonable enough to just ignore political outcasts like me and stick to staying in the center as he has been, and at least then they won't take the time to shoot us/beat us/arrest us like they did in the bush years.
I don't know. it probably sounds stupid that I seem to be complaining about being disenfranchised when I consciously hold onto beliefs that make me susceptible to exactly that, but I have no choice. I know what I know and feel what I feel and can't make myself to believe something that I simply think is not true. it feels like shit, and I wish you could understand. but enjoy your day, really.
Re: on hope.vivantvivantNovember 5 2008, 15:13:20 UTC
im trying to have a discussion with you because i value your opinions and am interested in your perspectives and in learning more about this stuff. saying shit like "enjoy your day, really", or reducing this outcome to just "having a good time", makes you sound as though you are talking down to me, which i don't appreciate at all. it's not as though i am viewing the outcome of this election as a personal victory (it isnt?) , and i am not criticizing you or asking you to change how you feel/think & hop on any kind of "train". if anything, i'm feeling the complete opposite and am just trying to find out more. i'm sorry people are giving you shit for not sharing the same perspective....but please don't bunch me up with the group of people telling you that your life is going to be easier now, (because i know you well enough to know this is simply not true.) or with those that are being disrespectful and closed-minded towards your standpoint on this. i am not insulting you for not feeling as though obama represents you in this country (as there are many people that agree with you), nor am i the least bit personally insulted by it (even if you are).
i understand that you feel like shit about this. i just think that the whole "the best I can hope is that barack is reasonable enough to just ignore political outcasts like me and stick to staying in the center as he has been, and at least then they won't take the time to shoot us/beat us/arrest us like they did in the bush years." attitude is not constructive in the least, and i think that if you communicate your ideas to others (that may be less open to hearing them than i) like this, you are doing yourself and all of your ideas a great disservice.
I'm genuinely not talking down. I think it's a classic internet case of misreading my tone. I really seriously want you to enjoy your victory because this is the first time I've personally seen you excited about some of these things. I'm not personally resentful of or offended by your choice in obama, nor anyone else's choice. if you think this is going to keep you involved, then cool. more power to you. it is not my intention to spoil that.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything, thats not what I set out to do. at this point I could care less about what others think because theyre gonna believe whatever they believe and I'm not going to have an influence on it, nor do I really care to. I set out to make tangible differences in our society, and thats what this discussion and my concern is centered around. based on my observations, obama-supported legislation like the patriot act has been thoroughly unhelpful in the efforts of many to produce that tangible change. neither the democrats nor republicans have been supportive of any significant efforts to remove corporate control over public life. my calling it the way I see it may not be what you consider 'constructive', but I think thats a matter of what youre trying to construct. being constructive is one thing (I personally feel I have been very constructive through my involvement in community stuff), whereas I feel as though forcing myself to have faith in corporate control and in the continuing wars would not be constructive in the least.
Re: on hope.vivantvivantNovember 5 2008, 21:23:05 UTC
i'm not saying your message is counterproductive - i'm saying that the way you are choosing to communicate your message is. whether it is your intention to sound slightly condescending when you say things like "more power to you" or not, i feel like this might be an obstacle that you are creating for yourself in terms of how you communicate your ideas, assuming youre not trying to be sarcastic/your tone is not intentionally consdescending. i have not EVER said (or implied) that you're not a constructive person, and if i recall correctly, i just spent the past 2 years of my life trying to convince YOU of how meaningful your involvement in the community truly is. i havent even SLIGHTLY hinted that i believe ANY of the insults you are somehow pulling from what i've written....? i have never said that your "calling it the way you see it" is counterproductive, especially since, as i have said before, i have always found these types of discussions with you really helpful.
i know people are attacking, but i'm not one of them.
I really honestly haven't intended to sound condescending in the least. I can't state enough that I respect your decision to vote for him and support him. I am really genuinely being honest when I say that stuff like 'more power to you', because after all this is the first election where you've been genuinely excited about the results, and I'm not in any way here to spoil that.
I guess what I was first trying to say was that we should be wary of a number of his political decisions instead of buying into his personality and a seemingly endless barrage of imagery intended reappropriate the words "hope" and "change" but (in my eyes at least) failing to actually backing it up with policy. but I already conveyed that point and you for the most part agreed with it.
then I guess after that point I was just expressing my frustration with how I've been treated over the past few months with this barack things, and yeah, you're totally 100% right in that it doesn't have to do with you. I am sorry if it seemed as though I was directing it that way, but I really didn't mean it like that.
I guess I was just sort of talking about how it feels since there are very few people willing to listen. I can't really describe it so well, but one way to explain would be like... I dunno, put yourself in an imaginary scenario where everyone around you supports mccain and puts posters up of his likeness associated with random words that don't necessarily have anything to do with his policies, and anytime you try and actually have a reasoned conversation with people about his policies it just ends up going really really bad, and then some of the people who support him start taking something that you invested a lot of work into (for me amar, but for you let's just say like your photography), so they are using your pictures to somehow support the mccain-palin campaign, but you're just like wtf dudes? multiply that by like months and months and months and it kinda feels a little stressful, and then it all comes to a climax where everyone starts sending you text messages about how mccain won and the world will be ok again. and you kinda feel like you have nobody to turn to who you can relate to, you know?
most people lately have been telling me to "lighten up" (including nat, who made extra effort to go out of her way to tell me its not so bad) and then generally people seem to end up more or less calling me an asshole when I don't meet their apparent standards of lightening-up-ness, which more or less would constitute of appeasing them by restating over and over that I don't dislike obama and respect his intellect and reasoning, which is true, but to me it kinda misses the point (the point being everything I've sort of spilled out via livejournal comments and a lot more, I guess).
so yeah, it's definitely not something personal. I don't feel attacked nor am I trying to attack you. I just have nowhere to go with all these ideas or feelings. I really don't agree with the pro-capitalist means for change that he's presenting, so in a way it oddly feels like there's even less space for me to work than there was during the bush administration... not that he's better than bush, but it's getting harder and harder for me to really relate to people on a level of ideas. it feels terrible.
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the women's suffrage movement, for example, granted women the right to vote, but has still not impacted the world enough to create equality between sexes, even today....but does that mean that the movement and all of the efforts poured into it were all in vain/a total failure? no way! should i discredit the fact that we have just elected an african american president, solely because i don't agree with his views on same-sex marriage/opinions all across the board? should i completely dismiss THAT huge aspect of positive change because we havent solved every injustice at once? these are totally broad examples, but you get the point.
i agree in that i hope people continue to have an interest in whats going to happen next , and that they continue to care about whats going on in the world..... but i dont think its wrong of anyone to be happy that a tiny step has been made.
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I wouldn't want be represented by obama or any of these other people, and yet a lot of people have been talking to me today as though they've been doing me in particular some huge favor, as though my activism will be easier because the country is on my side now. my side? really? among other things, I am an anti-war activist. most people are operating under the misconception that obama is an anti-war candidate.. although he has clearly stated that he's not. it's not really his fault, it's the fault of the people who follow him. if he indeed violates the national sovereignty of pakistan then he could very well trigger a nuclear conflict, which I certainly hope does not happen, but my question is why is that on nobody's mind right now? why did that not come up during the election process? because we had to beat mccain, sure. but who is on his ass now? a chunk of progressives who would normally be on the presidents ass probably won't be, because of obamania or whatever. and people like me who aren't into it are facing a lot more shit than usual because we aren't jumping on the "change train".
as far as the 'personal imperfections' go, I think that the unchecked executive branch has thrived for the past 8 years on one person's imperfections: it was george w. bush's personal vendettas about iraq and general incompetence that allowed him to be pushed into an obviously unjust war. granted, there was a clear-cut economic and political system manufacturing a necessity for that war, but his personal imperfections played a large enough part in enabling those entitites to have control over this country's policy. in terms of obama, he has an affection for the state of israel that has been characteristic of every president elect after jimmy carter, despite their near-genocidal decimation of the state of palestine (the kill ratio in the israel/palestine conflict is 40 palestinians dead for every israeli, and yet somehow they couldn't be practicing state-sponsored terrorism because they're on our side). it sounds like more than a personal flaw to me actually, and I simply can't get excited for this, I'm sorry.
I am excited that he's the first black president, sure, and that he appears to think in a far more balanced way than bush or mccain, but I don't think that's a victory. I think that celebrating that is like celebrating getting punched in the face instead of shot in the foot. but again, that's just me, and just how I'm experiencing all this. I'm glad everyone else is having a good time, though. seriously. more power to you.
I'll be over here trying to bring up all that shit the president doesn't care about and who knows, there might be a change in how the state reacts to it. the best I can hope is that barack is reasonable enough to just ignore political outcasts like me and stick to staying in the center as he has been, and at least then they won't take the time to shoot us/beat us/arrest us like they did in the bush years.
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i understand that you feel like shit about this. i just think that the whole "the best I can hope is that barack is reasonable enough to just ignore political outcasts like me and stick to staying in the center as he has been, and at least then they won't take the time to shoot us/beat us/arrest us like they did in the bush years." attitude is not constructive in the least, and i think that if you communicate your ideas to others (that may be less open to hearing them than i) like this, you are doing yourself and all of your ideas a great disservice.
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I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything, thats not what I set out to do. at this point I could care less about what others think because theyre gonna believe whatever they believe and I'm not going to have an influence on it, nor do I really care to. I set out to make tangible differences in our society, and thats what this discussion and my concern is centered around. based on my observations, obama-supported legislation like the patriot act has been thoroughly unhelpful in the efforts of many to produce that tangible change. neither the democrats nor republicans have been supportive of any significant efforts to remove corporate control over public life. my calling it the way I see it may not be what you consider 'constructive', but I think thats a matter of what youre trying to construct. being constructive is one thing (I personally feel I have been very constructive through my involvement in community stuff), whereas I feel as though forcing myself to have faith in corporate control and in the continuing wars would not be constructive in the least.
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i know people are attacking, but i'm not one of them.
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I guess what I was first trying to say was that we should be wary of a number of his political decisions instead of buying into his personality and a seemingly endless barrage of imagery intended reappropriate the words "hope" and "change" but (in my eyes at least) failing to actually backing it up with policy. but I already conveyed that point and you for the most part agreed with it.
then I guess after that point I was just expressing my frustration with how I've been treated over the past few months with this barack things, and yeah, you're totally 100% right in that it doesn't have to do with you. I am sorry if it seemed as though I was directing it that way, but I really didn't mean it like that.
I guess I was just sort of talking about how it feels since there are very few people willing to listen. I can't really describe it so well, but one way to explain would be like... I dunno, put yourself in an imaginary scenario where everyone around you supports mccain and puts posters up of his likeness associated with random words that don't necessarily have anything to do with his policies, and anytime you try and actually have a reasoned conversation with people about his policies it just ends up going really really bad, and then some of the people who support him start taking something that you invested a lot of work into (for me amar, but for you let's just say like your photography), so they are using your pictures to somehow support the mccain-palin campaign, but you're just like wtf dudes? multiply that by like months and months and months and it kinda feels a little stressful, and then it all comes to a climax where everyone starts sending you text messages about how mccain won and the world will be ok again. and you kinda feel like you have nobody to turn to who you can relate to, you know?
most people lately have been telling me to "lighten up" (including nat, who made extra effort to go out of her way to tell me its not so bad) and then generally people seem to end up more or less calling me an asshole when I don't meet their apparent standards of lightening-up-ness, which more or less would constitute of appeasing them by restating over and over that I don't dislike obama and respect his intellect and reasoning, which is true, but to me it kinda misses the point (the point being everything I've sort of spilled out via livejournal comments and a lot more, I guess).
so yeah, it's definitely not something personal. I don't feel attacked nor am I trying to attack you. I just have nowhere to go with all these ideas or feelings. I really don't agree with the pro-capitalist means for change that he's presenting, so in a way it oddly feels like there's even less space for me to work than there was during the bush administration... not that he's better than bush, but it's getting harder and harder for me to really relate to people on a level of ideas. it feels terrible.
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