Aragorn is a heroic guy, but while he was playing with elves--don't get me started on elves living in their protected paradises again--and fighting battles very much elsewhere, the people of Gondor had to fight for their lives against the forces of darkness, and the Stewards had to keep Gondor going.Well, except for the part where Aragorn served Ecthelion (Denethor's father) for years in disguise as Thorongil, just like he had served Theoden's father Thengel in Rohan, during his wandering years. And the part where the "protected paradises" of the elves are attacked in the North from Dol Goldur and the Easterlings while there is fighting in the South. It's not like Gondor is the only battle front of the Ring War, Lothlorien and Mirkwood are attacked from Dol Goldur, the Dale under King Brand has to fight, and dwarves and men are under siege in Erebor until news of the victories in the South came. Also not all elvish settlements have rings to protect them, those are mostly the Noldorin settlements protected by their rings, otoh the
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Ah, someone with a deeper knowledge of the books weighs in, whereas I saw the movies once or twice each and slogged through each book after the viewing. The extended edition of The Two Towers raised Aragorn in my esteem by mentioning in a bit of detail what noble things he's done in the past, whereas prior to that he seemed to be some guy who wandered around and had a lot of battle skills that he'd used somewhere.
If you just watch the movies, it looks like the elves are living in luxurious, peaceful splendor while humanity lives in fear behind walls or fights to regain the ruins of territory lost. Since that seems to be the usual elven thing in many non-Tolkein stories, it's easy to continue making the assumption.
Aragorn has always been my favorite character in LOTR, even as kid (when most people seem to identify more with the hobbits), so I tend to be defensive on his behalf
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From my experiencejenna_thornDecember 30 2003, 06:12:27 UTC
But I think to develop that level of attachment to Middle Earth and its intricacies you probably have to have read LOTR for the first time before you're twelve or so, or it won't work.
I suspect you may be right.
I have friends who are quite into the movie and have gotten very enthusiastic about the DVDs and patiently slogged through the books while I cracked a whip over them so that we could discuss Arwen's daughters and so on.
Whereas my mother did read the Hobbit to me before I could read it myself, and I grew up wanting to be Eowyn before I got old enough (mid twenties) to realize that Sam is a much better person to grow up to be. And no one in my close circle of friends quite gets that.
Re: From my experienceratcreatureDecember 30 2003, 07:15:21 UTC
I think if I had read it first as an adult or even as an older teenager, I would have never had the same attachment to it. As it is I started to have serious problems with the universe, for example with the racism in it. Not that I want to start a flame war, which is very easy with this topic, but it's more than "superficial" problems like the descriptions of the bad guys, for example this idea of lesser and higher men, and bloodlines being lessened through intermingling between them, and though I know that there are ways of interpreting what is told that are less racist than others, for example when in the appendix of LOTR it is said that the shortening of the Dúnedain's lifespan is due to Middle Earth itself and their greater distance from the light of the West, not due to mingling with the 'lesser' men as the descendants of Númenor themselves thought, or the places where unity in origin of men is stressed, etc., still each time I read Tolkien I have this uncomfortable feeling about his universe
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Re: From my experiencejenna_thornDecember 30 2003, 08:08:43 UTC
But that's true in any universe created in any series of books. My emotional fondness for Narnia is still there, despite the fact that as I grew older I discovered the overt religous iconography for the faith I rejected. I don't read the books myself, because it does interfere with my immediate enjoyment, but I still smile with I think of the Snow Queen and her Turkish delights. My fond memories of curling up with Nancy Drew while quarentined with the chicken pox remain despite well...Nancy Drew...c'mon
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Re: From my experienceratcreatureDecember 30 2003, 09:37:50 UTC
I actually don't much care anymore about any of the other books I've read as a kid. Certainly I'm not fannish about any of them. I mean LOTR isn't really a children's book, so that's part of it, but I really loved Sherlock Holmes too, for example, but now I'm fairly indifferent. I haven't read Nancy Drew (I'm not sure they're popular here, I hadn't heard about these books until I've seen them mentioned by English speakers a lot), and I only vaguely remember reading some of Narnia, but there were plenty of fantasy worlds I did love as a kid and teenager that I never think about anymore. So for me Middle Earth is unique in that respect
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Re: From my experiencejenna_thornDecember 30 2003, 11:47:57 UTC
maybe I'm just not as much a book person as others, yet the mechanism you mention is the same after all
And I am sure that there are television watching (as opposed to book reading) people out there whose concept of feminine beauty was molded as children by Daisy Duke and they still find cut off shorts attractive. Whatever the medium, I suspect the molding process is the same.
Of course I'll still always think of the events as they happened in the books and the characterizations there as the "real" ones
I suspect I will as well, though quite honestly I *like* movie Boromir better than book Boromir. That's my not-so-secret crush on Sean Bean showing, I fear.
they supplied gorgeous and extremely detailed visuals for that universe and with a very few exceptions did so magnificently. Grond, wow! Minas Tirith, oh yes. Eowyn, cheer
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Re: From my experiencerimrunnerDecember 30 2003, 17:06:44 UTC
I *like* movie Boromir better than book Boromir. That's my not-so-secret crush on Sean Bean showing, I fear.
Oh, I don't know. I observed after seeing TTT (theatrical cut) that the movies had made Boromir less of a jerk, Faramir more of one. Having now seen the EE and RotK, I have to revise that; Faramir's conscience was just on vacation for a little while there, that's all.
They're both nice guys who just happen to be able to slaughter dozens of orcs at a go, even when stuck full of arrows as big around as saplings.
Re: From my experiencejenna_thornDecember 31 2003, 06:17:32 UTC
I was most amused that in the director's/writer's commentary on the dvd for Towers that Jackson and crew spent quite a lot of time defending their decision to have Faramir drag Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath (and almost the same amount of time defending their choice to make Pippin the hero of the Entmoot and reduce the Ents decision accordingly. Perhaps I'm not the only person who was upset by that, after all). They recognize that he needs defending.
And who wouldn't find orc-slaying pincushions sexy? Heaven knows I do. Wow.
Re: From my experienceviridian5December 30 2003, 18:46:32 UTC
I suspect I will as well, though quite honestly I *like* movie Boromir better than book Boromir. That's my not-so-secret crush on Sean Bean showing, I fear.
Partly, but I think movie Boromir is also more sympathetic than book Boromir.
Jackson took the time to make Hobbiton a real place with waving grasses and jumping kids and that earns him a smiley face in my book any day.
I love his Hobbiton. It's somewhat idealized but has enough realism to it to work. Besides, the round doorways make me smile.
Re: From my experienceviridian5December 30 2003, 18:42:05 UTC
It makes a big difference that Peter Jackson obviously loves this world. This is a man who had people spending two months creating chain mail for everyone.
I'm always creating pictures in my head of what I'm reading. It's part of the fun for me.
Re: From my experienceviridian5December 30 2003, 18:27:39 UTC
Some of the class things in Lord of the Rings bothers me too.
I don't have the prior attachment to the books to mess with my views of the movie, but for books I enjoyed that movies were made of, like The Crow and Interview With the Vampire, I tend to see the books and movies as related but different things, so I can say that I wish the movie did such and such from the book but not get really upset about it. I'm told that I'm unusual that way. *g*
unusual that wayjenna_thornDecember 31 2003, 06:32:56 UTC
Oh I don't know. There are some of us out there. 8-)
Kipling's The Jungle Books is another of those works that mom read to me. (Hmm, should have used that as an example in the thread with Ratcreature, because it's very similar to hers. Now I read half of them and cringe at the colonial bombast but at the time, they were adventure stories) yet I love the animated movie that Disney made of them (Not the weird live action adventure thing with Cary Elwes as the Brit. *That* one is another case of borrowing character names and settings and making a movie and calling it by the original's title. Grr. I'm thinking of the animated musical from the late 60's.)
I love movie Baloo and Baggy is a stuffy old man. Once I get 'Bare Necessities' caught in my head, it'll be there for a while and Shere Khan's voice gives me shivers in the best possible way. But in the books, my heart belongs forever to Bagheera, buying a child with a bull. Separate and equally beloved.
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The extended edition of The Two Towers raised Aragorn in my esteem by mentioning in a bit of detail what noble things he's done in the past, whereas prior to that he seemed to be some guy who wandered around and had a lot of battle skills that he'd used somewhere.
If you just watch the movies, it looks like the elves are living in luxurious, peaceful splendor while humanity lives in fear behind walls or fights to regain the ruins of territory lost. Since that seems to be the usual elven thing in many non-Tolkein stories, it's easy to continue making the assumption.
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I suspect you may be right.
I have friends who are quite into the movie and have gotten very enthusiastic about the DVDs and patiently slogged through the books while I cracked a whip over them so that we could discuss Arwen's daughters and so on.
Whereas my mother did read the Hobbit to me before I could read it myself, and I grew up wanting to be Eowyn before I got old enough (mid twenties) to realize that Sam is a much better person to grow up to be. And no one in my close circle of friends quite gets that.
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And I am sure that there are television watching (as opposed to book reading) people out there whose concept of feminine beauty was molded as children by Daisy Duke and they still find cut off shorts attractive. Whatever the medium, I suspect the molding process is the same.
Of course I'll still always think of the events as they happened in the books and the characterizations there as the "real" ones
I suspect I will as well, though quite honestly I *like* movie Boromir better than book Boromir. That's my not-so-secret crush on Sean Bean showing, I fear.
they supplied gorgeous and extremely detailed visuals for that universe and with a very few exceptions did so magnificently. Grond, wow! Minas Tirith, oh yes. Eowyn, cheer ( ... )
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Oh, I don't know. I observed after seeing TTT (theatrical cut) that the movies had made Boromir less of a jerk, Faramir more of one. Having now seen the EE and RotK, I have to revise that; Faramir's conscience was just on vacation for a little while there, that's all.
They're both nice guys who just happen to be able to slaughter dozens of orcs at a go, even when stuck full of arrows as big around as saplings.
Reply
They're both nice guys who just happen to be able to slaughter dozens of orcs at a go, even when stuck full of arrows as big around as saplings.
You can never have too many nice guys like that!
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And who wouldn't find orc-slaying pincushions sexy? Heaven knows I do. Wow.
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Partly, but I think movie Boromir is also more sympathetic than book Boromir.
Jackson took the time to make Hobbiton a real place with waving grasses and jumping kids and that earns him a smiley face in my book any day.
I love his Hobbiton. It's somewhat idealized but has enough realism to it to work. Besides, the round doorways make me smile.
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I'm always creating pictures in my head of what I'm reading. It's part of the fun for me.
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I don't have the prior attachment to the books to mess with my views of the movie, but for books I enjoyed that movies were made of, like The Crow and Interview With the Vampire, I tend to see the books and movies as related but different things, so I can say that I wish the movie did such and such from the book but not get really upset about it. I'm told that I'm unusual that way. *g*
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Kipling's The Jungle Books is another of those works that mom read to me. (Hmm, should have used that as an example in the thread with Ratcreature, because it's very similar to hers. Now I read half of them and cringe at the colonial bombast but at the time, they were adventure stories) yet I love the animated movie that Disney made of them (Not the weird live action adventure thing with Cary Elwes as the Brit. *That* one is another case of borrowing character names and settings and making a movie and calling it by the original's title. Grr. I'm thinking of the animated musical from the late 60's.)
I love movie Baloo and Baggy is a stuffy old man. Once I get 'Bare Necessities' caught in my head, it'll be there for a while and Shere Khan's voice gives me shivers in the best possible way. But in the books, my heart belongs forever to Bagheera, buying a child with a bull. Separate and equally beloved.
Reply
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