I personally don't believe in that the "literal meaning" of any scripture can be established - and I'm not even talking buddhism here, just basic common sense. The aforementioned "many rooms in my father's house" are obviously a metaphor - and it is quite easy to come to the conclusion that most words are undefined or poorly defined. So what's the truth that people are referring to as "literal"?
I think it's utterly important to stay open to alternatives - one fine day I might just find out that the dharma is total bogus, and then I will surely depart and leave. It doesn't seem very probable now, but who knows?
To me, this is one more reason to study systems like cabbalah, or even far-out stuff like scientology. I admit though that the main reason is that I just love the brilliance, imagination and rhetorics, she sheer effort that people put into totally whacky thought systems.
As for hebrew, and cabbala, and judaism as a whole, I just love it. I would never ever convert (circumcision... ewww), never even considered it, but I just love that strange, archaic religion. Plus the fact that it's still around after millenia of prosecution. The stamina that judaism shows really earns my respect.
For my own life, I'd still prefer the tantra, though, for obvious reasons. ;-)
well, the idea that jesus went to america for a start, and the subsequent "truth" that joseph smith was given these scriptures by an angel to translate and then the angel came back and took them back off him.
they also believe that the whole of the bible is literal truth and not a metaphor, and that evolution is a huge lie.
one thing that used to really annoy me but now i find rather touching, is that mormons baptise the dead.
do converts have to get the chop as well? eek! (that's gotta hurt.
i have never had a glimpse of the fabled tantra. i haven't had a relationship with a buddhist or even near-buddhist. i like the idea of it, though!
Yes they do. Judaism is deliberately designed to make conversion as hard as possible - that's because jews have made the experience, over and over again, that converts are the first to re-convert at the first sign of pressure from the outside, and then become the fiercest anti-semites.
one thing that used to really annoy me but now i find rather touching, is that mormons baptise the dead.
The enormous multitude of religious rituals never cease to astound me! It means that someone can find truth even after death, right?
i have never had a glimpse of the fabled tantra.
Hehe... I experienced the basics. What would you expect of it, if you were to give it a try?
... Something just came to me. You know, the sheer idea that freedom, enlightenment, is indeed possible, and the fact that all my current experienes seem to point to this being actually the case... I mean, WOW! If I stop to think about all the implications, this is pretty mind-blowing hardcore stuff!
Re:the quick and the deade4qOctober 19 2007, 15:12:56 UTC
well, that is one way of making sure people are committed, i guess.
it used to annoy me that people would be baptised without their permission - someone of the same gender stands in for the dead person. it pissed me off that if i died the mormons could have their way with me. but although i still think they are crazy hoops there is one thing about it that i sort of do believe. if, after death, there is no linear time, then that means that it might be worth healing the past. and not just your own past either. i had a brief episode of practicing tonglen. it was then that the thought that if you could potentially lessen the suffering of others through this practice, and i am not saying you definitely can, but if you can, then why would it need to be people in your own slice of time or the future?
i think my idea of what tantra might be has altered over time. when i first heard of it i felt a great lack from sex, i never orgasmed, and i was too shy to make myself come in front of my partner, so i just felt resentful. at that time i thought it would just be a chance for me to have more pleasure myself. it's not that i didn't feel connected through sex, i did, but the fact that my partners would come and i wouldn't left me in a state i now think foolish.
i think, now, that it would be an opportunity to feel really new with someone. not attempting any bravado, and not being weak in vulnerability, but strong in it, the way i feel in daily life now. but WITH someone else, in a really conscious way.
i do think that enlightenment is very possible, just by making a commitment to being kind in the moment over a series of moments, because in doing so you are overwriting all negative expectations and inhabiting a kinder self all of the time. i joined a neurology group here on lj some time ago, and most of what i read is pretty irrelevant to me, but i joined it because a friend linked to a discussion about how meditation alters the brain. it really is mind blowing, the implications are almost unimaginable.
Re:the quick and the deadvijenoOctober 22 2007, 09:42:21 UTC
I remember I was extremely annoyed when my mother started doing evangelization on my grandma a few years before her death (who used to be a fierce socialist and atheist for most of her life) -- I guess what annoyed me the most was the fact that she succeeded. It made me think, how about myself? Will I fall for some well-meaning evangelist as well?
Now that I've found my own path, I tend to see it a little more relaxed. My grandma did have peace in her final days, she did get to know a few very fine people amongst those christians, and I don't believe it really did change her as a person.
I think that one great aspect about the tantra is that it gives concepts to things (acts, bod parts) that many folks have a difficult time talking about. I experience it as tremendously empowering to KNOW (a bit) what I'm doing, when I'm with a partner. To know how to push a button, to be able to give her the hottest time possible - it's a very very soothing sensation. I guess that in our culture, many of us feel very alone, vulnerable and incompetent about sexuality. The in-the-now attitude of tantra, and the patterns of things to do it suggests, can help relieve that.
Care to share that link to that neurology discussion? I would be very interested in that!
Re:deathbed change of hearte4qOctober 22 2007, 14:34:12 UTC
i think it is worth learning things even on your deathbed, in fact, i hope i do. imminent mortality is bound to make you think a bit, and even if you don't have access to concepts which match your own feelings exactly then it's still quite good if whatever it is helps you to make sense of what is, after all, a pretty unfamiliar scenario.
there was one point when i more or less convinced myself that i should become a catholic because i thought that the exercise of faith would be a good thing for me. but i prefer the idea of acceptance, it is closer to my 'real' belief, whatever that is!
blimey, i wish i 'knew' more about sex... it seems that this is one of those things where you start off 'knowing it all' and end up knowing nothing! that's how i feel about it just now, anyway. yes, i can see how having a tantric blueprint to follow would be REALLY relaxing - feeling under any duress to think of what to do next is hardly going to enhance any moment. i take it you have a partner or have had partners who you have shared this recipe with and it has worked?
i did have a trawl through but couldn't find the specific discussion on meditation and neuroscience, but there is quite a bit on the net if you type in those two words... i have no idea why i didn't make a proper link to it, and it was a while ago. now that they can image the live brain so well they can actually see loads of things which would only otherwise be able to be measured on more or less subjective questionnaires. so it is a ripe area for research. here is one link but you will find plenty on the web if you want to look.
Re:deathbed change of heartvijenoOctober 23 2007, 12:16:12 UTC
Talking about tantra and sexual knowledge, maybe it's best to think of this as a temporary solution. A crutch for the crutch, pardon the pun. You use it to get more in touch with your own desires, feelings and needs, and then you slowly start unlearning it again, and learn something else instead. Isn't it a great example of impermanence? Maybe another way to frame it is this: It is important to learn, and it's equally important to keep in mind what you're learning it for... it's for the pleasure of your body, the fulfilment of your soul, and ultimately "enlightenment." How intensely do you believe that sexual healing and sensual pleasuring are a step on the way to nirvana?
My partner shares this knowledge with me. She's still shy about talking too much straight sexual stuff... strangely, and contrary to my expectations, I found that this was not necessarily needed so much for us, in order to share this great experience. Sometimes I guide her a bit, push her a bit in some direction, but that's really more about variety and the mood of the moment.
Re: learning and unlearninge4qOctober 23 2007, 19:10:34 UTC
interesting! i know that from other things... i never thought what happens after tantra.
i certainly feel quite strongly about sex, but i hadn't thought of it as being a meditational practice as such. although, i don't see why not, after all, i certainly have had quite strong experiences even from, for instance, mindfulness of breathing.
i think, for women, often, talking, particularly during sex leads away from the moment. my feelings about it are quite contrary. i don't want to speak but i like to be spoken to, but it is better for there to be no speaking than for it to be 'wrong'.
i am currently separated from my partner, not because of relationship difficulties as such, but it has been a while and i almost can't imagine it now. so the whole question of what it could< be is completely academic for now.
Re: learning and unlearningvijenoOctober 24 2007, 09:43:44 UTC
Well, one tantric exercise is that you just visualize your breath streaming from your yoni up through the spine into your brain on inhaling - and then down through your forefront to the yoni again (and isn't it great to have such a mystical word for your genitals? I find this much more respectful than pussy, or even vagina.) ... With a partner, you can create a circle of breath through both of your bodies... You can also do it on your own if you like, of course. ;-) Hehe.
And you know, about questions being academic and such... everything changes! *g*
i had forgotten about doing that kind of breathing - do you know, i am quite daft, because i was told about that breathing technique in association with masturbation, so i practiced it for a long time on my own, but never thought of bringing it in to sex!
i am going to reinstate it, and if i ever do manage to have sex with another person again i will endeavour to remember to bring it in!
well, i sincerely hope that things do change, though exactly what things i will leave to the universe, since i can't control EVERYTHING!!!
I think it's utterly important to stay open to alternatives - one fine day I might just find out that the dharma is total bogus, and then I will surely depart and leave. It doesn't seem very probable now, but who knows?
To me, this is one more reason to study systems like cabbalah, or even far-out stuff like scientology. I admit though that the main reason is that I just love the brilliance, imagination and rhetorics, she sheer effort that people put into totally whacky thought systems.
As for hebrew, and cabbala, and judaism as a whole, I just love it. I would never ever convert (circumcision... ewww), never even considered it, but I just love that strange, archaic religion. Plus the fact that it's still around after millenia of prosecution. The stamina that judaism shows really earns my respect.
For my own life, I'd still prefer the tantra, though, for obvious reasons. ;-)
Reply
they also believe that the whole of the bible is literal truth and not a metaphor, and that evolution is a huge lie.
one thing that used to really annoy me but now i find rather touching, is that mormons baptise the dead.
do converts have to get the chop as well? eek!
(that's gotta hurt.
i have never had a glimpse of the fabled tantra. i haven't had a relationship with a buddhist or even near-buddhist. i like the idea of it, though!
Reply
Yes they do. Judaism is deliberately designed to make conversion as hard as possible - that's because jews have made the experience, over and over again, that converts are the first to re-convert at the first sign of pressure from the outside, and then become the fiercest anti-semites.
one thing that used to really annoy me but now i find rather touching, is that mormons baptise the dead.
The enormous multitude of religious rituals never cease to astound me! It means that someone can find truth even after death, right?
i have never had a glimpse of the fabled tantra.
Hehe... I experienced the basics. What would you expect of it, if you were to give it a try?
... Something just came to me. You know, the sheer idea that freedom, enlightenment, is indeed possible, and the fact that all my current experienes seem to point to this being actually the case... I mean, WOW! If I stop to think about all the implications, this is pretty mind-blowing hardcore stuff!
Reply
it used to annoy me that people would be baptised without their permission - someone of the same gender stands in for the dead person. it pissed me off that if i died the mormons could have their way with me. but although i still think they are crazy hoops there is one thing about it that i sort of do believe. if, after death, there is no linear time, then that means that it might be worth healing the past. and not just your own past either. i had a brief episode of practicing tonglen. it was then that the thought that if you could potentially lessen the suffering of others through this practice, and i am not saying you definitely can, but if you can, then why would it need to be people in your own slice of time or the future?
i think my idea of what tantra might be has altered over time. when i first heard of it i felt a great lack from sex, i never orgasmed, and i was too shy to make myself come in front of my partner, so i just felt resentful. at that time i thought it would just be a chance for me to have more pleasure myself. it's not that i didn't feel connected through sex, i did, but the fact that my partners would come and i wouldn't left me in a state i now think foolish.
i think, now, that it would be an opportunity to feel really new with someone. not attempting any bravado, and not being weak in vulnerability, but strong in it, the way i feel in daily life now. but WITH someone else, in a really conscious way.
i do think that enlightenment is very possible, just by making a commitment to being kind in the moment over a series of moments, because in doing so you are overwriting all negative expectations and inhabiting a kinder self all of the time. i joined a neurology group here on lj some time ago, and most of what i read is pretty irrelevant to me, but i joined it because a friend linked to a discussion about how meditation alters the brain. it really is mind blowing, the implications are almost unimaginable.
Reply
Now that I've found my own path, I tend to see it a little more relaxed. My grandma did have peace in her final days, she did get to know a few very fine people amongst those christians, and I don't believe it really did change her as a person.
I think that one great aspect about the tantra is that it gives concepts to things (acts, bod parts) that many folks have a difficult time talking about. I experience it as tremendously empowering to KNOW (a bit) what I'm doing, when I'm with a partner. To know how to push a button, to be able to give her the hottest time possible - it's a very very soothing sensation. I guess that in our culture, many of us feel very alone, vulnerable and incompetent about sexuality. The in-the-now attitude of tantra, and the patterns of things to do it suggests, can help relieve that.
Care to share that link to that neurology discussion? I would be very interested in that!
Reply
there was one point when i more or less convinced myself that i should become a catholic because i thought that the exercise of faith would be a good thing for me. but i prefer the idea of acceptance, it is closer to my 'real' belief, whatever that is!
blimey, i wish i 'knew' more about sex... it seems that this is one of those things where you start off 'knowing it all' and end up knowing nothing! that's how i feel about it just now, anyway. yes, i can see how having a tantric blueprint to follow would be REALLY relaxing - feeling under any duress to think of what to do next is hardly going to enhance any moment. i take it you have a partner or have had partners who you have shared this recipe with and it has worked?
i did have a trawl through but couldn't find the specific discussion on meditation and neuroscience, but there is quite a bit on the net if you type in those two words... i have no idea why i didn't make a proper link to it, and it was a while ago. now that they can image the live brain so well they can actually see loads of things which would only otherwise be able to be measured on more or less subjective questionnaires. so it is a ripe area for research. here is one link but you will find plenty on the web if you want to look.
Reply
My partner shares this knowledge with me. She's still shy about talking too much straight sexual stuff... strangely, and contrary to my expectations, I found that this was not necessarily needed so much for us, in order to share this great experience. Sometimes I guide her a bit, push her a bit in some direction, but that's really more about variety and the mood of the moment.
Reply
i certainly feel quite strongly about sex, but i hadn't thought of it as being a meditational practice as such. although, i don't see why not, after all, i certainly have had quite strong experiences even from, for instance, mindfulness of breathing.
i think, for women, often, talking, particularly during sex leads away from the moment. my feelings about it are quite contrary. i don't want to speak but i like to be spoken to, but it is better for there to be no speaking than for it to be 'wrong'.
i am currently separated from my partner, not because of relationship difficulties as such, but it has been a while and i almost can't imagine it now. so the whole question of what it could< be is completely academic for now.
Reply
And you know, about questions being academic and such... everything changes! *g*
Reply
i am going to reinstate it, and if i ever do manage to have sex with another person again i will endeavour to remember to bring it in!
well, i sincerely hope that things do change, though exactly what things i will leave to the universe, since i can't control EVERYTHING!!!
Reply
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