Comments | vexen: The Number 12: Disciples, Tribes and the Zodiac

vexen

The Number 12: Disciples, Tribes and the Zodiac

Sep 05, 2007 17:00

"The Divine Number 12: 12 Gods, 12 Disciples, 12 Tribes and the Zodiac" by Vexen Crabtree (2007)):
The conclusion reads (briefly; many interesting tid-bits are iterated through first!):
When you see the number twelve, watch out. If the number is employed in a practical sense to divide time, measurements, or angles, then the chances are it makes ( Read more... )

mathematics, israel, disciples, tribes, jacob, superstition, gods, god, 12, religion, astrology, olympus

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12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 5 2007, 23:58:52 UTC

I really don't understand the point of what you are getting at with the number 12. However, the 12 Tribes of Israel are REAL, even if you don't believe in God. They are Jacob's 12 sons, which are the 12 Tribes of Israel. They EXIST historically. Actually, the perfect number of God is 7, not 12. Also, the 12 Tribes of Israel, the land of Israel and the Jewish people are VERY important to God, because Heaven has the 12 tribes all over it. This is why: Revelation 21:10-14 ( ... )

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel vexen September 6 2007, 06:12:51 UTC

The 12 sons of Jacob are mythical.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 7 2007, 02:11:50 UTC

Prove that they are "mythical."

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel vexen September 7 2007, 06:17:35 UTC

“According to Sherwin Wine, the major exponent of Humanistic Judaism, the traditional conception of Jewish history is mistaken. In his view, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never existed. Furthermore, the Exodus account is a myth: 'There is no historical evidence to substantiate a massive Hebrew departure from the land of the Pharaohs. As far as we can surmise, the Hebrew occupation of the hill country on both sides of the Jordan was continuous. The 12 tribes never left their ancestral land, never endured 400 years of slavery, and never wandered the Sinai desert.' Moreover, Moses was not the leader of the Hebrews, nor did he compose the Torah. In this light, it is an error to regard the biblical account as authoritative; rather it is a human record of the history of the Israelite nation, the purpose of which is to reinforce the faith of the Jewish nation.”

"Encyclopedia of New Religions" by Prof. Christopher Partridge, p118

Other historians such as Prof. Bart Ehrman, etc, have also pointed out that there is little historical evidence behind ( ... )

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 9 2007, 22:59:42 UTC

I would bet that Sherwin Wine is "secular" and DOES NOT believe in God. Mr. Wine is not God.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel vexen October 17 2008, 09:34:57 UTC

You asked for evidence, and there it is, in a professional book on comparative religion by one scholar, commenting positively on the views of another. Whether or not any of them believe in God does not change the historical evidence as to whether or not the 12 tribes of Israel were real. They are a symbolic part of mythology, and will remain that way unless you can find historical evidence to the contrary.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 13 2012, 01:24:00 UTC

To sum all this up check out hebrew israelites.org

and

israelite heritage.com

I am sure it will be painful for you to see, but watch it anyway and find some crapy book to dispute it.

It is simple, obey the ten commandments
follow the dietary laws
pray for israel

and live your life, no religion involved

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel vexen September 13 2012, 05:45:04 UTC

No religion involved? So then you don't have to obey the ten commandments (half of which are religious, not ethical), and don't have to follow the (religious) dietary laws, and don't have to pray (which is religious). So what was the point of your message if no religion is involved?

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 7 2007, 02:47:17 UTC

Let me ask you this, if you say the 12 sons of Jacob are "mythical," do you also believe that Jesus never existed either??? And, if your answer is yes to all of the above, I would then ask you if you also think "Muhammad, the so-called "prophet" of the Muslims, never existed either and was "mythical." Which would lead me to believe that you don't think Abraham ever existed either. And, if that's so, you need to make a trip to Israel (me and my husband did) and tell me why so many places, tombs, etc. that are mentioned in the Bible ACTUALLY exist. I mean the land of Israel exists and it's mentioned in the Bible. I don't mean to get off track, are you one of those who believe there is no "absolute truth." And, if so, if there is no "absolute truth", then how can it be "absolutely true" that there is NO "absoulte truth?"

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel vexen September 7 2007, 06:28:39 UTC

1. Correct: No 12 sons of Jacob. It is a mythical, pagan tradition to separate God's domains into 12 because ancient astrologers' first divided the stars into 12 zodiacs, based on certain heavenly bodies they could sometimes see, such as Mars.

2. Yes: "Jesus did not exist" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

3. Muhammad definately DID exist; he and a band of early Muslims did wage war on their neighbouring pagans, and were often victorious (or sneaky). There are multiple recorded sources on both sides (i.e., Muslim and Pagan) documenting the rise of the Muslims and specifically talking about Muhammad. These accounts were largely created during Muhammad's time; i.e., there is genuine historical evidence. Whereas for Jesus and Jacob, there is no evidence for their existence, and specific evidence that casts doubt on their existence ( ... )

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 9 2007, 23:04:16 UTC

Well, the true Christian is given the power of God to believe, because without it, there is no way to believe it! Kind of like you and all other secularist. I use to not believe ... no one convinced me to believe or "shoved it on me,"; just one day God entered my every day life and invaded it ... I thank God He did. :>

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 10 2007, 02:19:52 UTC

If Abraham did not exist, then why do the Muslims claim him to their father, as do the Jews???? Well, it's because he was the father of both the Jews and the Arabs! Abraham first had Ishmael (son of Hagar and Abraham). You see, God promised Abraham and Sarah they would have ason who would be a blessing to all mankind (Isaac). However, although they believed God, when 10 years had passed and they still did not have a son, they "thought" God might intend for them to have their promised son another way. So, taking things into their own hands instead of waiting and having faith in God's promise (like all good Christians do every now and then), Sarah told him to have sex with Hagar, their Egyptian handmaiden, and have a child with her. Well, Hagar got pregnant and had Abraham's son, whom they called Ishmael. However, God did give Abraham and Sarah the "promised" son after Ishmael, whom they named Isaac. About the time Ishmael was about 13 years of age, Ishmael began to "resent" Isaac because he knew that he was the son God was ( ... )

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous August 27 2012, 09:36:46 UTC

Very true and well said :)

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous September 13 2012, 00:55:08 UTC

I Am sorry but your information is not accurate. Jacob did have 12 sons and they are the chosen people of the most high. The messiyah whose name is actually Yahoshua/Yeshua was a hebrew. Many people call the people of the most high jews. They are hebrew israelites, not jews. Moses was a hebrew. The hebrew israelites were taken captive into slavery, for disobeying the convenant they made with the most high.

hebrew israelites.org and israelite heritage.com

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous October 11 2008, 21:14:13 UTC

In the Ancient World, numbers were used symbolically.

Re: 12 Tribes of Israel anonymous October 15 2008, 08:58:05 UTC

Jesus' Historical Line goes back to Abraham in three numerical sets of 14 ( ... )

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