First, Dolarhyde. Necrophilia is kind of a squick. Though it might not happen on the show. Cat-killing is kind of a rage button and makes me want to do to him the same thing Will did to Randall Tier and then feed the remains to stray cats. Again, might not happen, but Fuller only said Will's dogs are safe from harm, not a word about even dogs in general, never mind cats. Horses are definitely not safe. Freddie is my fictional crush, but even if she wasn't, I'm still majorly uncomfortable with her eventual fate. And I think the gory scene that Fuller talks about, the one that made everyone shriek, is her, not Will getting facial scars.
Now, Penny Dreadful.
a)I seem to remember something bad happens to a cat in one episode too, onscreen or offscreen I'm not sure. Theoretically, I can just skip that episode, but there are other things.
b)It took me several years to stop having negative reaction to Billie Piper. She's not at fault here, some (keyword "some") fans of a certain character she used to play are the ones to blame. I mostly got over it now, but still worry that getting involved with any fandom starring her might lead to those fans resurfacing in my online life again.
c)I'm kind of uncomfortable with... I don't know, it might change in s2, but I read about people involved with the show talking at Comic Con about queer representation, and... Okay, so Vanessa really really really loved Mina? But she only had sex with men, and Mina is an offscreen character for most of the time, and at first only appears in a flashback, then comes back only to die, and Vanessa's feelings didn't seem to be reprocipated anyway... But we have Ethan and Dorian's hookup!... except I'm not sure I'm interested in them all that much (less than in Vanessa, anyway). And speaking about Dorian...
d)Call me a purist if you want - any Dorian Gray with straight dark hair is a deal-breaker for me. Plus this one looks kinda anachronistic.
Those are the things that hold me back.
My apologies for word vomit, but thanks for the invitation.
I do hope you'll forgive me for taking this long to reply, Vivian, just the day after I posted this my Internet got all freakishly wonky and I couldn't log into LJ anymore; I would've commented anon if push comes to shove, except I'd set my journal to No Anons Allowed. xD But now I've found a usable proxy, so I could catch up with the lj stuff, here on my own turf and also on Cleo's.
You never have to apologize for "word vomit" here, Vivian. I'm grateful for your accepting the invitation and commenting here, and I hope this won't be the last time we conversed like this.
So to your points: I do share most if not all of your F.D. squicks, only I think Fuller and co. would be able to distill the essence of Dolarhyde's character while leaving out the necrophilia and shit. (It's less about the sexual deviances and more about his taking the life from families to further himself spiritually.) No rape in the show would surely extend to no post-mortem violations, right? Animal murders I'm not so certain, but I think it'll at least be results-only and without even showing empath!Will kill the pets. I recall in the book they were only testing for methane in the grounds. As for Freddie's death, i think the burning wheelchair is out of the picture, though I don't know about the Biting Her Lying Lips bit. Do you think the method's too rapey? An updated version might be strangling her with Internet cables. xD
As for Will's fate at the end of the season, I'm thinking more on the lines of him getting even more emotionally traumatized than just physically, which is something we've been seeing since the Pilot. If this universe's Will didn't suffer a institutionalization-worthy psychotic break after shooting Garett Jacob Hobbs, then perhaps the taking down of Red Dragon might.
a) There's also a very graphic (showing the result, not the process) cat death in The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo as well, and it was almost a Fridge move of the killer since Daniel Craig's character had grown attached to the cat. I don't think there was any cat-killings in Penny Dreadful but I may have to rewatch all eight episodes to be sure. I can guarantee that there were no animal deaths in Episode 5, though.
b) Ah, Billie Piper; it was about Doctor Who, right? I keep getting half-drowned by the Death To Steven Moffat shit whenever I browse tumblr. And one day my Hannibal sanctuary was finally breached when someone tried to fling mud on Moffat's writing on Sherlock by letting Sherlock say he's a "highly-functioning sociopath" and in the next picture have Hannibal say something about it being a "grossly wrong term and I should make you into a highly juicy steak". }:-( What's ironic is that the same reblogger also believes in self-diagnosing ("Don't let anyone else tell you differently") and racial/gender generalizations (i.e. "all cis-men should just die").
But nothing like that has happened on Cleo's blog AFAIK. Bless her for moderating her turf so well.
c) I have my own opinions on this, but I never really discussed them with anyone on the Internet yet,so if there's anything stupid in it I'd hope you could call it out so we might further the discussion on a healthier path:
I think gender/orientation representation is one of those show-don't-tell things, and whenever people go meta over it and talk about what is which, then it gets diminished. :( I think a bisexual character doesn't have to go "the whole way" with people of both genders just to show that they're bi, like Piper Chapman from Orange Is The New Black, who's engaged with a guy but also had a past relationship with another woman. Vanessa loves Mina as a sister and perhaps more than just a sister, and personally I got that through Eva Green's performance and especially that one kiss as they were lying on a bed. I'm sure you can get even more from it than I did from Episode 5, which is, as I've said elsewhere, pretty much the entire season in a nutshell. Mina is just as prominent in it as Vanessa.
As for Ethan/Dorian, I think that bit proves more about Dorian being very much pansexual (and seducing a normally tough dude like Ethan) than Ethan being bisexual.
d) Haven't read the book yet -- though I do have the ebook, "collegebookshelf" is a wonderful site -- but I'll take your word on it. I'm partial to believe the Anglo-filles podcast (#21 guest-starring Cleolinda, they were talking about Vampires) where they said the anachronisms of it was on purpose, you either love the guy for dressing in modern leather or you don't. :-)
.
So my points so far seems to be: Fingers crossed for a less rapey Francis Dolarhyde, and do please give Penny Dreadful 105 a shot. Thank you so much for starting this conversation. <3
Re: (Part 2 of 2)vivian_lakeMay 4 2015, 08:47:00 UTC
I'm glad you're okay. Your silence was making me slightly nervous, because usually Cleo's updates are like batsignal for you.
I know about GWTDT, didn't plan to ever watch it in any case, but thanks for the warning nonetheless.
I don't think that bisexual person should sleep with everyone just to demonstrate their non-monosexuality, but when the show creator talks about "fluid sexuality" and that "every character has a potential to love any other" and such stuff, yet what actually happens onscreen is het-het-het all the way down, except for Ethan/Dorian, which is great and all, but resently Dorian'r actor talked about his character's deep connections with Vanessa, but said that this season they won't explore any consequences of his fling with Ethan - well, it's kind of (unintentionally, I'm sure) comes off as "you can have Deep Connection to people of one sex and carnal relationship with people of the other, *but not both*". (And if Dorian/Vanessa is the so-called endgame, it might turn into "well, you *can* have both as long as one of you is a man and another is a woman", which, again *I don't believe* would be the intended message, since Logan is gay, but if it happens, I know my brain would interpret it exactly like this.)
(Basically, what I *should* watch is "Lost Girl", but, unfortunately, it doesn't push the right buttons for me. Just not my aesthetic.)
Re: (Part 2 of 2)vermouth1991May 7 2015, 14:03:09 UTC
Your "bat signal" comment really cracked me up :D (Recently I was quite crushed by my email alert failing to tell me three times in a row that Cleo had updated her LJ) Sorry for making you nervous, but prior to my solving the proxy problem, I did hope that my inability to comment even on Cleo's blog would be a signal to you that I was off LJ, period.
I may have been too over-the-top with that "only actual sex is sufficient to show attraction" remark; that being said, my original point was that I think that Vanessa did show enough smouldering attraction towards Mina in the show, even though the furthest she went was a kiss on Mina's cheek after the latter's fallen asleep, and the people she'd actually had sex with (various demons, Dorian, Mina's fiancé, and a random dude in the rain) were all men.
Back to Hannibal, I forgot to say this last time, but one of the things that Fuller's already done to gain my confidence that he'd do Dolarhyde's character justice is how they did Mason and Margot's characters. I won't belabor you with the stuff in book canon, but the Mason in the show abused Margot and the kids at camp/at tour of his estate without it being spelled out that it was of a sexual nature. The effects are twofold: 1) *Just* verbally abusing a kid for his tears and breaking Margot's arm before threatening her with teh piggies is already a peel-your-face-off- worthy offence, and 2) You can still draw conclusions to sexual abuse if you wanted to, the outcome (e.g. Mason never got what was coming to him until Hannibal happened) still stands.
Okay, taking this from Cleo's journal to here.
First, Dolarhyde. Necrophilia is kind of a squick. Though it might not happen on the show. Cat-killing is kind of a rage button and makes me want to do to him the same thing Will did to Randall Tier and then feed the remains to stray cats. Again, might not happen, but Fuller only said Will's dogs are safe from harm, not a word about even dogs in general, never mind cats. Horses are definitely not safe. Freddie is my fictional crush, but even if she wasn't, I'm still majorly uncomfortable with her eventual fate. And I think the gory scene that Fuller talks about, the one that made everyone shriek, is her, not Will getting facial scars.
Now, Penny Dreadful.
a)I seem to remember something bad happens to a cat in one episode too, onscreen or offscreen I'm not sure. Theoretically, I can just skip that episode, but there are other things.
b)It took me several years to stop having negative reaction to Billie Piper. She's not at fault here, some (keyword "some") fans of a certain character she used to play are the ones to blame. I mostly got over it now, but still worry that getting involved with any fandom starring her might lead to those fans resurfacing in my online life again.
c)I'm kind of uncomfortable with... I don't know, it might change in s2, but I read about people involved with the show talking at Comic Con about queer representation, and... Okay, so Vanessa really really really loved Mina? But she only had sex with men, and Mina is an offscreen character for most of the time, and at first only appears in a flashback, then comes back only to die, and Vanessa's feelings didn't seem to be reprocipated anyway... But we have Ethan and Dorian's hookup!... except I'm not sure I'm interested in them all that much (less than in Vanessa, anyway). And speaking about Dorian...
d)Call me a purist if you want - any Dorian Gray with straight dark hair is a deal-breaker for me. Plus this one looks kinda anachronistic.
Those are the things that hold me back.
My apologies for word vomit, but thanks for the invitation.
Reply
I do hope you'll forgive me for taking this long to reply, Vivian, just the day after I posted this my Internet got all freakishly wonky and I couldn't log into LJ anymore; I would've commented anon if push comes to shove, except I'd set my journal to No Anons Allowed. xD But now I've found a usable proxy, so I could catch up with the lj stuff, here on my own turf and also on Cleo's.
You never have to apologize for "word vomit" here, Vivian. I'm grateful for your accepting the invitation and commenting here, and I hope this won't be the last time we conversed like this.
So to your points: I do share most if not all of your F.D. squicks, only I think Fuller and co. would be able to distill the essence of Dolarhyde's character while leaving out the necrophilia and shit. (It's less about the sexual deviances and more about his taking the life from families to further himself spiritually.) No rape in the show would surely extend to no post-mortem violations, right? Animal murders I'm not so certain, but I think it'll at least be results-only and without even showing empath!Will kill the pets. I recall in the book they were only testing for methane in the grounds. As for Freddie's death, i think the burning wheelchair is out of the picture, though I don't know about the Biting Her Lying Lips bit. Do you think the method's too rapey? An updated version might be strangling her with Internet cables. xD
As for Will's fate at the end of the season, I'm thinking more on the lines of him getting even more emotionally traumatized than just physically, which is something we've been seeing since the Pilot. If this universe's Will didn't suffer a institutionalization-worthy psychotic break after shooting Garett Jacob Hobbs, then perhaps the taking down of Red Dragon might.
(To be continued...)
Reply
a) There's also a very graphic (showing the result, not the process) cat death in The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo as well, and it was almost a Fridge move of the killer since Daniel Craig's character had grown attached to the cat. I don't think there was any cat-killings in Penny Dreadful but I may have to rewatch all eight episodes to be sure. I can guarantee that there were no animal deaths in Episode 5, though.
b) Ah, Billie Piper; it was about Doctor Who, right? I keep getting half-drowned by the Death To Steven Moffat shit whenever I browse tumblr. And one day my Hannibal sanctuary was finally breached when someone tried to fling mud on Moffat's writing on Sherlock by letting Sherlock say he's a "highly-functioning sociopath" and in the next picture have Hannibal say something about it being a "grossly wrong term and I should make you into a highly juicy steak". }:-( What's ironic is that the same reblogger also believes in self-diagnosing ("Don't let anyone else tell you differently") and racial/gender generalizations (i.e. "all cis-men should just die").
But nothing like that has happened on Cleo's blog AFAIK. Bless her for moderating her turf so well.
c) I have my own opinions on this, but I never really discussed them with anyone on the Internet yet,so if there's anything stupid in it I'd hope you could call it out so we might further the discussion on a healthier path:
I think gender/orientation representation is one of those show-don't-tell things, and whenever people go meta over it and talk about what is which, then it gets diminished. :( I think a bisexual character doesn't have to go "the whole way" with people of both genders just to show that they're bi, like Piper Chapman from Orange Is The New Black, who's engaged with a guy but also had a past relationship with another woman. Vanessa loves Mina as a sister and perhaps more than just a sister, and personally I got that through Eva Green's performance and especially that one kiss as they were lying on a bed. I'm sure you can get even more from it than I did from Episode 5, which is, as I've said elsewhere, pretty much the entire season in a nutshell. Mina is just as prominent in it as Vanessa.
As for Ethan/Dorian, I think that bit proves more about Dorian being very much pansexual (and seducing a normally tough dude like Ethan) than Ethan being bisexual.
d) Haven't read the book yet -- though I do have the ebook, "collegebookshelf" is a wonderful site -- but I'll take your word on it. I'm partial to believe the Anglo-filles podcast (#21 guest-starring Cleolinda, they were talking about Vampires) where they said the anachronisms of it was on purpose, you either love the guy for dressing in modern leather or you don't. :-)
.
So my points so far seems to be: Fingers crossed for a less rapey Francis Dolarhyde, and do please give Penny Dreadful 105 a shot. Thank you so much for starting this conversation. <3
Reply
I know about GWTDT, didn't plan to ever watch it in any case, but thanks for the warning nonetheless.
I don't think that bisexual person should sleep with everyone just to demonstrate their non-monosexuality, but when the show creator talks about "fluid sexuality" and that "every character has a potential to love any other" and such stuff, yet what actually happens onscreen is het-het-het all the way down, except for Ethan/Dorian, which is great and all, but resently Dorian'r actor talked about his character's deep connections with Vanessa, but said that this season they won't explore any consequences of his fling with Ethan - well, it's kind of (unintentionally, I'm sure) comes off as "you can have Deep Connection to people of one sex and carnal relationship with people of the other, *but not both*". (And if Dorian/Vanessa is the so-called endgame, it might turn into "well, you *can* have both as long as one of you is a man and another is a woman", which, again *I don't believe* would be the intended message, since Logan is gay, but if it happens, I know my brain would interpret it exactly like this.)
(Basically, what I *should* watch is "Lost Girl", but, unfortunately, it doesn't push the right buttons for me. Just not my aesthetic.)
Reply
I may have been too over-the-top with that "only actual sex is sufficient to show attraction" remark; that being said, my original point was that I think that Vanessa did show enough smouldering attraction towards Mina in the show, even though the furthest she went was a kiss on Mina's cheek after the latter's fallen asleep, and the people she'd actually had sex with (various demons, Dorian, Mina's fiancé, and a random dude in the rain) were all men.
Back to Hannibal, I forgot to say this last time, but one of the things that Fuller's already done to gain my confidence that he'd do Dolarhyde's character justice is how they did Mason and Margot's characters. I won't belabor you with the stuff in book canon, but the Mason in the show abused Margot and the kids at camp/at tour of his estate without it being spelled out that it was of a sexual nature. The effects are twofold: 1) *Just* verbally abusing a kid for his tears and breaking Margot's arm before threatening her with teh piggies is already a peel-your-face-off- worthy offence, and 2) You can still draw conclusions to sexual abuse if you wanted to, the outcome (e.g. Mason never got what was coming to him until Hannibal happened) still stands.
My further two cents.
Reply
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