Look at that! An actual Farscape post!
I saw Nerve yesterday with my brother and sister in law, and it put me in a Farscape mood. It also put me in a defensive mood, though, as only showing a show you love to non-fen can. *g* So, it was probably the wrong time for me to follow the link from farscape_weekly to Kernezelda's rant about Farscape Season 4, and it was an *especially* bad time for me to actually read the comments.
But of course, I did read them, and feeling as defensive as I did, I just had to reply. *g* And then I thought about it some more, and decided that I have more to say, so I decided to move the whole thing down to my LJ, instead of highjacking kernezelda's.
(Note to my brother, and anybody else on my friends list who hasn't watched Farscape yet: do *not* read this! Really. I'm not kidding. Farscape is much more fun to watch unspoiled.)
Here is the comment I posted in Kerne's LJ, in response to redstarrobot's comment that she thought the crew of Moya were too forgiving towards John after DMD, and too quick to accept John's story that he was being controlled by the chip, and that it was Harvey and not John who killed Aeryn:
1. By the events of DMD, John's crewmates have known John for a while. They have seen how he acts without a chip, and they have seen that at no point has he shown any inclinations towards any violence towards any of his friends (admittedly, with the exception of CDM, which wasn't exactly a high point for the others as well). If anything, it was *Aeryn* who kept knocking him out in Season 1, not the other way around, and John's strong reaction against that was very telling.
Also, John might have been somewhat late in telling anyone except Aeryn about the chip, but after he did (and before he killed Aeryn), they still had time to see plenty of evidence that the chip was affecting him, and of how hard he was *fighting* it, even other than Zhaan's words about evil possessing him -- John *begging* D'Argo to kill him, because he didn't have the control necessary to do it himself and was *afraid* of what he might do to the others being just one of the more extreme examples. John trying to go back to Scorpius when they were rescuing him, to the point that Aeryn had to knock him out to keep him from going, was another.
The events in DMD *weren't* like the events in CDM, which everybody rightly blamed themselves for as evidence of their lower instincts coming to life. Harvey!John's actions in DMD (especially knocking Aeryn out in order to escape; the flying scene with Aeryn slightly less so because it was less direct violence, and Harvey!John was trying to get Aeryn to leave him alone, not to hurt her) were *very* out of character for John, and John's crewmates knew him well enough for long enough to see that. If John had had a history of striking out in anger and then apologizing for it (like, say, D'Argo does, going way back to TGIFA in Season 1), I would see your point, but under these circumstances, and with the evidence that the Moya crew had of how hard John was fighting the chip, I don't see why it's unreasonable for them to believe that the chip was responsible for John's actions, and that John would get back in control once the chip was removed. They should have listened to John's repeated warnings and guarded him more carefully, yes (and yes, John *did* give them repeated warnings that they ignored), but that doesn't make John any less a victim of what happened.
2. I'm also not sure why you think the fact that the whole Moya crew (including John) believed without question and without any supporting evidence other than D'Argo's word that D'Argo wasn't responsible for killing his wife would make D'Argo in particular any less likely to believe John's version of the story now. Even if you ignore what we learn about D'Argo and his own problems with controlling his hyper-rage from MAA (and I tend to try and ignore MAA as much as possible, because I hate that episode with a passion *g*), wouldn't John unquestioning faith in D'Argo's version of events make D'Argo *more* likely to respond in kind, not less? Am I forgetting a scene somewhere where John didn't believe D'Argo or used his wife against him in an argument in a way that made it seem like he doubted D'Argo? The entire Moya crew took D'Argo's claim that he was innocent in his wife's death on faith, just as they took John's claim in SOD that he could control Harvey on faith. How does one contradict the other?
3. In the specific case of Aeryn turning down a relationship with John in SOD -- if Aeryn had said that she couldn't have a relationship with John because John still had Harvey in his head, and she couldn't trust John's ability to control him -- *that* I would have understood. Because regardless of who is to blame for DMD, John has admitted that Harvey is still in his head, and if John can't control him, then John is a danger. But that's not what Aeryn said -- she specifically said that she couldn't have a relationship with John because Zhaan sacrificed her life to give them a chance to have that relationship, and she doesn't want anyone else to sacrifice his life for her. Which I think is the weirdest reason *ever*, and I'm am not even a John/Aeryn shipper. And I saw no reason that Aeryn was lying about her reasons for not having a relationship. Aeryn doesn't usually lie to John, even when the truth she has to say is difficult. (Or, pre-season 4 Aeryn doesn't lie, anyway. *sigh*) If she didn't trust John, she would have said so.
4. In the grand scale of things, I don't agree with the idea that the fact that Farscape is told from John's POV means that people are more willing to forgive John's mistakes than they are anybody else's. (Before Season 4, that is, which is another reason that I have a *big* problem with Season 4.) The show *is* more sympathetic to *Moya's crew*, and the so-called "good guys", than it is to the people who chase them, and that *is* probably because of John's POV, but I wouldn't say the show is more sympathetic to *John* in particular than it is to the others in Moya's crew. Most of the examples people give as proof that John's "crimes" are unforgivable were *group* decisions, and yet John seems to be the only one who gets blamed. Destroying the gammack base wasn't done lightly, and everybody on Moya was *fully* behind the idea, to the point where D'Argo and Aeryn almost came to blows over who would get to go on the transport pod with John. John wasn't even fully *conscious* when the Shadow Depository was destroyed. And Crais had just as much, if not more, to do with destroying Scorpius's Command Carrier as John did. Why is it John alone who gets blamed for these things by the fans? (Notice that I am not mentioning Katratzi on this list. *sighs over Season 4 again*).
But aside from those cases, where at least there is a valid reason to blame John, even when other people were involved as well, in the show itself, John is repeatedly blamed by other characters, including Moya's crew, for things that are *not* really his fault, like, say, the mess in A Bug's Life, and Zhaan's death in SIW, and D'Argo's ship trying to blow everybody up in Revenging Angel (speaking of D'Argo's well-documented tendency towards violence). How is that being more sympathetic towards John than the others?
That's my reply to redstarrobot. As I stewed thought about this subject more, though, I realized that I actually disagree with the main premise of redstarrobot's comments itself, which I myself took for granted in my earlier comment. Now that I've thought about this more, I don't think Moya's crew did forgive John for his role in what happened in DMD and SOD. Unreasonable as it is (and I included my own comment above mostly to show that I do think that it *is* unreasonable), I think they did blame John for what happened, for all that they tried not to. I can think of no other reason that *all* of them were so quick to blame John for what happened in Self-Inflicted Wounds, when it wasn't in any way his fault. I think the Moya crew did want to trust John as much as they used to, but whenever they needed someone to blame, John would be the convenient scapegoat, much more often than he was before, and they were much more likely to be bitter if a well-meaning plan of his went wrong. It was subtle most of the time, I admit, but I think John did have to regain everybody's trust in early Season 3, and to prove that Harvey wasn't going to control him again.
I don't believe that what happened to John and Aeryn in DMD in any way parallels an abusive relationship, but I do believe that there were consequences from those episode for both of them, and that when the Moya crew was ready to trust John again, it was because he had *proved* that he could control Harvey, and that he wasn't going to go crazy on them again. (And again, I am only talking about Season 3 here, because I am nowhere *near* as happy about the plot arc in Season 4, and I don't want to rant about Season 4 right now. *g*)
If anything, the "good" character who disturbs me the most and brings up the most disturbing images of domestic violence is not John, but *D'Argo*. D'Argo, who once sent John into hiding for three days in TGIFA, and suffered no consequences for it. D'Argo, who nearly *killed* John for no reason other than that he was cranky in Revenging Angel, and then again was forgiven almost before he asked. To be fair to D'Argo, he never did anything like it again, but the fact that there were *no* consequences for his actions does bother me, a *lot*. Just because John is a man, and D'Argo never raised a hand to any of the women on the show does *not* make what D'Argo did to John in any way OK.
So yeah, way too many thoughts about Farscape today. That doesn't happen very often anymore, so I am happy when it does. *g*
But of course, I did read them, and feeling as defensive as I did, I just had to reply. *g* And then I thought about it some more, and decided that I have more to say, so I decided to move the whole thing down to my LJ, instead of highjacking kernezelda's.
(Note to my brother, and anybody else on my friends list who hasn't watched Farscape yet: do *not* read this! Really. I'm not kidding. Farscape is much more fun to watch unspoiled.)
Here is the comment I posted in Kerne's LJ, in response to redstarrobot's comment that she thought the crew of Moya were too forgiving towards John after DMD, and too quick to accept John's story that he was being controlled by the chip, and that it was Harvey and not John who killed Aeryn:
1. By the events of DMD, John's crewmates have known John for a while. They have seen how he acts without a chip, and they have seen that at no point has he shown any inclinations towards any violence towards any of his friends (admittedly, with the exception of CDM, which wasn't exactly a high point for the others as well). If anything, it was *Aeryn* who kept knocking him out in Season 1, not the other way around, and John's strong reaction against that was very telling.
Also, John might have been somewhat late in telling anyone except Aeryn about the chip, but after he did (and before he killed Aeryn), they still had time to see plenty of evidence that the chip was affecting him, and of how hard he was *fighting* it, even other than Zhaan's words about evil possessing him -- John *begging* D'Argo to kill him, because he didn't have the control necessary to do it himself and was *afraid* of what he might do to the others being just one of the more extreme examples. John trying to go back to Scorpius when they were rescuing him, to the point that Aeryn had to knock him out to keep him from going, was another.
The events in DMD *weren't* like the events in CDM, which everybody rightly blamed themselves for as evidence of their lower instincts coming to life. Harvey!John's actions in DMD (especially knocking Aeryn out in order to escape; the flying scene with Aeryn slightly less so because it was less direct violence, and Harvey!John was trying to get Aeryn to leave him alone, not to hurt her) were *very* out of character for John, and John's crewmates knew him well enough for long enough to see that. If John had had a history of striking out in anger and then apologizing for it (like, say, D'Argo does, going way back to TGIFA in Season 1), I would see your point, but under these circumstances, and with the evidence that the Moya crew had of how hard John was fighting the chip, I don't see why it's unreasonable for them to believe that the chip was responsible for John's actions, and that John would get back in control once the chip was removed. They should have listened to John's repeated warnings and guarded him more carefully, yes (and yes, John *did* give them repeated warnings that they ignored), but that doesn't make John any less a victim of what happened.
2. I'm also not sure why you think the fact that the whole Moya crew (including John) believed without question and without any supporting evidence other than D'Argo's word that D'Argo wasn't responsible for killing his wife would make D'Argo in particular any less likely to believe John's version of the story now. Even if you ignore what we learn about D'Argo and his own problems with controlling his hyper-rage from MAA (and I tend to try and ignore MAA as much as possible, because I hate that episode with a passion *g*), wouldn't John unquestioning faith in D'Argo's version of events make D'Argo *more* likely to respond in kind, not less? Am I forgetting a scene somewhere where John didn't believe D'Argo or used his wife against him in an argument in a way that made it seem like he doubted D'Argo? The entire Moya crew took D'Argo's claim that he was innocent in his wife's death on faith, just as they took John's claim in SOD that he could control Harvey on faith. How does one contradict the other?
3. In the specific case of Aeryn turning down a relationship with John in SOD -- if Aeryn had said that she couldn't have a relationship with John because John still had Harvey in his head, and she couldn't trust John's ability to control him -- *that* I would have understood. Because regardless of who is to blame for DMD, John has admitted that Harvey is still in his head, and if John can't control him, then John is a danger. But that's not what Aeryn said -- she specifically said that she couldn't have a relationship with John because Zhaan sacrificed her life to give them a chance to have that relationship, and she doesn't want anyone else to sacrifice his life for her. Which I think is the weirdest reason *ever*, and I'm am not even a John/Aeryn shipper. And I saw no reason that Aeryn was lying about her reasons for not having a relationship. Aeryn doesn't usually lie to John, even when the truth she has to say is difficult. (Or, pre-season 4 Aeryn doesn't lie, anyway. *sigh*) If she didn't trust John, she would have said so.
4. In the grand scale of things, I don't agree with the idea that the fact that Farscape is told from John's POV means that people are more willing to forgive John's mistakes than they are anybody else's. (Before Season 4, that is, which is another reason that I have a *big* problem with Season 4.) The show *is* more sympathetic to *Moya's crew*, and the so-called "good guys", than it is to the people who chase them, and that *is* probably because of John's POV, but I wouldn't say the show is more sympathetic to *John* in particular than it is to the others in Moya's crew. Most of the examples people give as proof that John's "crimes" are unforgivable were *group* decisions, and yet John seems to be the only one who gets blamed. Destroying the gammack base wasn't done lightly, and everybody on Moya was *fully* behind the idea, to the point where D'Argo and Aeryn almost came to blows over who would get to go on the transport pod with John. John wasn't even fully *conscious* when the Shadow Depository was destroyed. And Crais had just as much, if not more, to do with destroying Scorpius's Command Carrier as John did. Why is it John alone who gets blamed for these things by the fans? (Notice that I am not mentioning Katratzi on this list. *sighs over Season 4 again*).
But aside from those cases, where at least there is a valid reason to blame John, even when other people were involved as well, in the show itself, John is repeatedly blamed by other characters, including Moya's crew, for things that are *not* really his fault, like, say, the mess in A Bug's Life, and Zhaan's death in SIW, and D'Argo's ship trying to blow everybody up in Revenging Angel (speaking of D'Argo's well-documented tendency towards violence). How is that being more sympathetic towards John than the others?
That's my reply to redstarrobot. As I stewed thought about this subject more, though, I realized that I actually disagree with the main premise of redstarrobot's comments itself, which I myself took for granted in my earlier comment. Now that I've thought about this more, I don't think Moya's crew did forgive John for his role in what happened in DMD and SOD. Unreasonable as it is (and I included my own comment above mostly to show that I do think that it *is* unreasonable), I think they did blame John for what happened, for all that they tried not to. I can think of no other reason that *all* of them were so quick to blame John for what happened in Self-Inflicted Wounds, when it wasn't in any way his fault. I think the Moya crew did want to trust John as much as they used to, but whenever they needed someone to blame, John would be the convenient scapegoat, much more often than he was before, and they were much more likely to be bitter if a well-meaning plan of his went wrong. It was subtle most of the time, I admit, but I think John did have to regain everybody's trust in early Season 3, and to prove that Harvey wasn't going to control him again.
I don't believe that what happened to John and Aeryn in DMD in any way parallels an abusive relationship, but I do believe that there were consequences from those episode for both of them, and that when the Moya crew was ready to trust John again, it was because he had *proved* that he could control Harvey, and that he wasn't going to go crazy on them again. (And again, I am only talking about Season 3 here, because I am nowhere *near* as happy about the plot arc in Season 4, and I don't want to rant about Season 4 right now. *g*)
If anything, the "good" character who disturbs me the most and brings up the most disturbing images of domestic violence is not John, but *D'Argo*. D'Argo, who once sent John into hiding for three days in TGIFA, and suffered no consequences for it. D'Argo, who nearly *killed* John for no reason other than that he was cranky in Revenging Angel, and then again was forgiven almost before he asked. To be fair to D'Argo, he never did anything like it again, but the fact that there were *no* consequences for his actions does bother me, a *lot*. Just because John is a man, and D'Argo never raised a hand to any of the women on the show does *not* make what D'Argo did to John in any way OK.
So yeah, way too many thoughts about Farscape today. That doesn't happen very often anymore, so I am happy when it does. *g*