One of those rare times I dump a link here.

[verasteine]

[Massive trigger warning for the link, and therefore probably also the comments to this post.]

Laurie Penny, being a very brave woman indeed.Laurie Penny is one of the few mainstream reporters whose work I regularly read, and this piece, while published on her personal blog rather than in a mainstream paper, is a powerful argument against

Comments

[fide_et_spe]

Oh I'm not saying he shouldn't go. I'm just saying that I don't think he's trying to avoid it because of the allegations per se. Now I don't know his logic re the US, but it does seem that his lawyers are arguing he could be extradited to the US if he does.

I don't think the allegations are a perfect way to get rid of him because they would end up with him in prison, I know about the poor conviction rate, more just because of what's happened, because of the storm of publicity, and the fact that wikileaks is in effect over. I'm not for a minute saying that what is alleged isn't rape, or doubting the veracity, just saying that it's an alleged crime, and he's not proven guilty, that's all, yet I have read many articles that seem to assume he is. I do think he's being condemned as a rapist, and yes I do think he's an alleged rapist. As I said, it's perfectly possible for him to be one, I don't think his political reputation means he can't be, the way I've seen some argue, such as Naomi Woolf.

I'm aware of why women don't go to the police, and as I said I do think it's their choice, but I do also hope that more women will. You're right, I don't know about the system in other countries, and I know the laws on rape are different in different places, so it may well be much harder to come forward in some places that in others. I just know in Britain the situation has improved vastly since they've introduced the SARC (sexual assault referral centres) infrastructure, and the specialised police units, but I agree that it always takes courage to talk about it and go through with statements and examinations and the whole process. In my experience most women don't regret reporting, because there is such a good support structure for them now, that really kicks in once they report. Doesn't mean it's easy though, just better than it used to be.

[verasteine]

No, I'm sure he's not worried about the rape allegations. Who would be, with an atrocious conviction rate in most Western countries? I'm sure he's just genuinely concerned for the far graver crime of having done something the US doesn't like. (Which, we shall just add, is also a criminal offence. And one that endangers people. But I digress.) Of course he can be extradited to the US from Sweden. He can be extradited to the US from Britain, too. And the same procedures he used to try to stop the extradition to Sweden are open to him then, too. It's called the rule of law.

I don't think the allegations are a perfect way to get rid of him because they would end up with him in prison

Isn't that what he's worried about in the US, too? Them locking him up? So how is this any different?

I do think he's being condemned as a rapist, and yes I do think he's an alleged rapist.

He is an alleged rapist. Let's stick to the facts, and not argue semantics or whatever, because this debate has been about semantics too frequently already. Whether the mainstream media occasionally condemns him, yeah, possible. His accusers? Equally. So there's two sides to that story.

In my experience most women don't regret reporting, because there is such a good support structure for them now, that really kicks in once they report.

I don't know where your experience comes from, and I don't want to belittle it, but this is crap. The idea that it's so much better and easier in Britain is nonsense. Britain has a 2% rape conviction rate. It has police forces that think an anti-rape campaign should include blaming the victims. I very much doubt that every officer taking down a rape complaint is automatically believing the victim. I've seen experienced vice detectives at work, multiple times, and they aren't perfect and they disbelieve some victims and not others and none of this is perfect. Not to mention what actually happens when you report a sexual assault. The kinds of questions you get asked. The things you need to explain. No. It is not easy, and some women end up regretting it, trust me, because 98% of them don't see justice. Ever. They went through all of that for society to tell them that, hey, no, they weren't that credible after all.

[fide_et_spe]

I do really hate how these discussions are so difficult because, well maybe this is my problem, but I find it so hard to convey tone in writing, it's like emails are so difficult. At the end of the day I agree with everything you say, and I really hope you don't think I do because clearly my language or something is wrong. I don't know.

Anyhow I have more years of experience than I care to admit working with people who have been sexually assaulted. I'm not saying Britain is better than other places, not at all. Or that the conviction rate is high, but in fact the conviction rate for those that go to court is much higher than the figure that you quote. I was thinking it's about 50%, it's more in fact.. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates

As it's been a lot of years (yeah over 20, I'm old) I've seen things improve a lot, and I do hope the women we work with find themselves supported, they certainly tell us they do and the feedback is very good, I'm always really pleased when I see someone a while later and there has been a conviction, or they just say that they've received good support or counselling. I'm not taking away from your point that some women may well regret reporting, and as I said earlier, I don't think it's ever easy, any of it. I would never play that down.

[verasteine]

The problem I have with people saying, "yes, but" in anything to do with this case is that it comes off like playing devil's advocate, even if it's not intended. I know the law; I know the risks, and even if I didn't, the idea that a sex offender's right to be protected from an event that's a maybe at the horizon of a very distant thing is bigger than his accusers right to see justice, I get pissed off.

The article is accurate statistically speaking, but the 2% number is arrived at by calculating the actual rapes taking place each year and comparing it to the amount of convictions. It's a game of numbers, but it's not wrong.

I'm glad you see women who do not regret it. That means something is going right somewhere. But I come at this from the other side, namely as someone who's reported a sexual offence (that was not rape) and I don't like to see people have opinions on what women "should do" etc., even if you don't intend it to come off that way, because this shit isn't fully comprehensible until you've been on the other side.