Thoughts: Our Accidental Utopia? (or why vidding makes me gleeful)

[verasteine]

So, a while back, I promised y'all a thoughts post on the topic of gender in fanvids. And you know, I planned to do this sooner, but well... LJ, life, things intervened. This is that post

Comments

[alba17]

I totally see your point and that was one of the funny things about that Cupid's Chokehold vid, that it was subverting the whole girlfriend thing by applying the song to Steve/Danny. (Even if, like I said, I prefer not to use songs that use female pronouns when I'm making my own vids. Not that I would never do it, just, when I'm listening to songs and thinking about them from a fan vid perspective, hearing female pronouns "takes me out of the story" so to speak.)

What I'm really stuck on in this post is that you don't think slash is transgressive. I don't really understand that. To me it seems extremely transgressive. Taking straight male characters (and the case of H50, very traditionally masculine) and putting them in a gay sexual relationship with each other - how is that not transgressive? I feel like I'm missing something. Can you expand on that?

[verasteine]

Slash, for me, is not inherently transgressive just by the mere act of slashing, of assigning a different sexual identity to presumed heterosexual characters. The reason for this is mostly that a very good portion of fandom replicates traditional gender roles in their slash fanfic, often very sexist roles, recreating the gender dichotomy that is actually missing from a lot of same sex relationships. I don't want this to read as a comment on how/what same sex relationships are, but for me, any transgression is negated by authors' inability to recognise what it is they're looking at.

There's a second point, which is that slash is inherently adopting a culture that is not your own, perverting it for your own use. As much as I, too, do that, it does not make it transgressive. Homophobia and sexism are rife in fandom, alas, and calling the act of slashing in and of itself transgressive bypasses the fact that a good 50% of fandom (estimating here) is a member of the dominant ruling class, at least as it pertains to sexuality

[alba17]

Ack, I've got to run, replying quickly. Slash, for me, is not inherently transgressive just by the mere act of slashing, of assigning a different sexual identity to presumed heterosexual characters. Yeah, to me that's the transgressive part. Something to do with subverting assumptions about sexuality, perhaps. Guess we just disagree about that. I see what you're saying about how most fic is heteronormative, although I'm not sure I agree, or maybe it doesn't bother me? Not sure. Some fic is worse than others in this regard, obviously. I think the part of my brain that's involved with fic isn't terribly analytical. :) I don't think fic is really much about telling stories about gay people (actual queer content)- it's more in the realm of fantasy, a thing unto itself.

The whole 'appropriation of another culture' is an interesting question and an uncomfortable one. I do think that slashing is an inherently feminist act; Agree, for reasons you state.

[verasteine]

I think, for me, when it's merely the same gender roles projected onto two guys, it's exchangeable for me, like the names and characters don't matter and it could have just been a man and a woman, because they're not behaving like two men. (This is especially true for the majority of slash fandoms, where the men who are slashed are very masculine in their gender presentation.)

That said, I am very allergic to any slash that reeks of gender dichotomy or essentialism, because I hate that, and I don't want to see it in my slash. So maybe I'm extra harsh :). I agree that slash does not try to show actual queer content, slash is a genre by itself, that borrows from queer culture when it suits it.

[alba17]

Sounds like you're focusing more on the gender roles rather than the biological sex of the characters. To me, it's more important that we're showing a gay relationship, regardless of whether it's imitating traditional male/female roles. Not that I like that particularly, either

I am very allergic to any slash that reeks of gender dichotomy or essentialism - Do you mean one character acting stereotypically male and the other stereotypically female?

[verasteine]

I'm not opposed to showing gay relationships that copy male/female relationships, as long as that is realistic for the pairing being portrayed. Fandom tends to create it for any pairing, regardless of whether that fits those characters. Mind you, yes, I am a bit allergic to anything that smacks of it, so I might be more critical of it than the average person.

Re. gender dichotomy/essentialism... not so muchs stereotypical as the belief that there are distinct, unalterable differences between genders. Which usually, yes, shows itself in stereotypical behaviour, but in cases of slash, can also just mean that one character does all the traditionally female things and the other the male things, when this could just as easily be a blend. I'm not sure I'm getting my point across here, though, feel free to ask.

[eumelia]

While you're right in fanfiction is a thing unto itself, you can't ignore the implications of Slash as a queering tool of mainstream media.

Even if it isn't "proper" queer content (not sure what you mean by that btw), the characters who are Slashed in fanfiction, are assumed to be, at the very least, by subtextual readers of the show, to be bisexual. This is because of the automatic assumption of heterosexuality in mainstream media (you never have to "come out" as straight) then the slashed characters

There's a reason why the slash debate comes up again and again, because there is a marginal group representing a marginalised sexuality. This creates an atmosphere of antagonism, at times.

ETA: Fixed up for articulation.

[alba17]

the implications of Slash as a queering tool of mainstream media - what do you mean? Just what you said in the next paragraph?

Even if it isn't "proper" queer content (not sure what you mean by that btw), the characters who are Slashed in fanfiction, are assumed to be, at the very least, by subtextual readers of the show, to be bisexual. This is because of the automatic assumption of heterosexuality in mainstream media (you never have to "come out" as straight) then the slashed characters Well, that's why I think it IS transgressive. So...I agree.

"Proper queer content" - I was just quoting verasteine. I assumed she meant content produced by queer people about their own experience (or something), as opposed to the majority of people slashing, who are straight women. (although there's a significant minority of non-straight women apparently)