Secondly, not only do you have the problem of explaining how this creature, this "he," came about, you have the problem of proving to me that this all-powerful being not only simply exists, but is extraordinarily interested in my sex life and how much alcohol I consume, and if I get drunk regularly, or if I have sex with a variety of girls before I am officially married to them, he will be very enraged by this behavior and send me to hell - despite the fact, of course, that he himself created the sexual impulse in me to begin with.
Thirdly, this god of yours, this Christian god is quite simply monstrous, and his monstrous characteristics do more than enough to nearly prove he is simply man-made. First, in the Bible, this god arbitrarily chose a tribe in a remote area of Palestine to be his "chosen people," and then "he" decided that this people had a "right" to that entire land. "He" then ordered them to commit genocide and kill everyone in the entire area without mercy. (Imagine a group of people doing this today and claiming that some god told them to do it - which, of course, happens. We would surely write this god off as made up and invented in order to justify their murdering rampage.)
A quick reading of the first few books of the OT will also show that this god - "he" - is unusually freaked out by menstrual cycles and finds them to be quite disgusting and impure. Maybe he should have thought about this before he made them as part of a natural cycle.
As if to smack us in the face, he then sends "his" "son" to die for us on a cross, as if after committing genocide he had nothing for which to apologize.
All I can say in conclusion is this: It is far from reasonable to believe that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing god out there who simply exists with no explanation, and who takes an extreme interest in my sex life and how much alcohol I consume to the extent that he is willing to send me to hell for "sexual sin," and who is freaked out by menstrual cycles which he created, and who is loving and merciful but has no problem ordering mass killings over a piece of LAND, and who, finally, has no problem sending people to burn and burn and burn and burn and burn in horrible agony and misery for all of eternity because they didn't bow down to him and worship him when he only directly revealed himself to a few prophets in a remote area of the Middle East thousands of years ago.
I apologize if this seemed viscious. But I do not intend to show any respect to views which justify genocide and teach that I will burn in hell, and I do not see any need to refrain from attacking such beliefs through dialogue. This is nothing personal against you, obviously: I have always liked you quite a bit.
no, it's not "pure chance." if it is pure chance, then it is an absurd theory, because it is ludicrous for anyone suggest that something as complex as a human being could simply come about by pure chance, and i am not aware of anyone who has seriously proposed that and advocated it.
natural selection involes chance. but it does not involve completely random changes going out in random directions. there are a bunch of random mutations, but these mutations are "naturally selected" in that, as anybody who took 10th grade biology knows, those animals with favorable mutations survive, and those with unfavorable mutations or no mutations die, to make it more simplistic than it really is. the gradual changes make sense in line with the environment around them, which is "selecting" them, rather than being random changes in random directions.
this is compeletely different from a pure chance theory of human existence, which would say something like: "a bunch of shit exploded and then stuff assembled into a human being." this would be pure chance, and the key "natural SELECTION" element, which only involves chance over millions of years and is not guided by pure chance, would be completely missing. which is why absolutely no one believes any pure chance theory for how life came about.
biologist richard dawkins and others have demonstrated this with computer models in which they set up a program that generates random changes in a certain base shape. these changes represent "generations." dawkins then selects which changes seem to be moving in the direction of whatever shape he is trying to create, discarding the other "offspring." eventally, his basic shape becomes something much more complex and pleasing to the eye. nature does the same thing, by analogy, to random changes, though without being "conscious" of it and without an ultimate goal in mind, of course. it is just an analogy.
i am sure you know all of that as a biology major, obviously, and just didn't make the conclusion that it is, as a result, not "pure chance."
you dont understand what i mean by pure chance. I understand that people did not just come to be. The adaptations that are "selected" come about purely by chance. you cannot argue that. there is no thing that decides "well this animal will be better off with five fingers" and makes it so. Natural selection is not a thing that does things, it is something that happens by chance. all i meant by the fact that it is random chance is that there is nothing controlling it.
you know you dont want to argue evolution with me haha
think that i have read enough about evolution to argue about it on this theoretical level with you, especially since my interpretation of it as not being "pure chance" did not come from my own mind but from the mind of one of the world's most renowned biologists at oxford.
i made it clear that i do not believe anything is doing any selecting. but what is "selected" - selecting being only an analogy - is "selected" for some reason; there is an explanation. The point is that the gradual changes which take place over time happen for reasons which can be found in the environment. There are reasons one mutation causes an animal to die and another mutation helps an animal reproduce.
of course, the fact that the exact form of intelligent life is the human beings we see walking around us and not something that looks a bit different - well, that could be said to be closer to pure chance, but it still isn't. there is always some sort of reason for why these gradual changes took place, and science's goal is to find those reasons, and NOT simply say, "it was chance," or, "it was god."
in other words: to me, for something to be pure chance implies there is no discernable reason. it could have gone any other way had the dice fallen with different numbers displayed. but biologists look for reasons to explain why one trait was selected and another was not, why certain animals survived and others did not, why the gradual changes went in this direction and not in the other direction. a search for reasons to explain such things is not compatable with a "pure chance" theory.
really, though, we are just believing the same thing and explaining it differently. you say you mean it is random chance because nothing is controlling it, and i agree that nothing is controlling it, but i just say it is not random chance because, even if nothing is controlling it, there are still reasons - causes, explanations beyond the flip of the coin - for why one thing happened and not another.
Oh Andrew you're so fun because you actually give me feeback haha...but really, I have always liked you too! And I wish we could have talked more when I ran into you at Kroger that one night.
But anyway, you made good points in your argument, and I honestly try to not be a close-minded, "because I say so" kind of person, because that doesn't convince anyone and doesn't prove anything. I understand your main points and I have a few arguments that I want you to check out...
To start from the top, I truly believe, and the Bible shows us, that God really is interested in our lives, He's not just a modern, uncaring ruler, unconcerned about anyone but himself. God made us, and He loves us so much that He wants to be involved in our lives, even the miniscule aspects, through the good times and the bad. Although God was the one that created everything, humans are the ones that perverted it. And as we all know, anything done in excess is not good for the body. God made grapes, wheat, potatoes, and fruit but humans perverted this through their acts such as getting drunk on wine, beer, vodka, etc. Alcoholic beverages do not flow freely in nature, are not made by God. When it comes to sex, it is true that God made those impulses and feelings, but he made those specifically for procreation, for bonding between a husband and wife, and emphasizes the importance of staying pure. I believe that sex and feelings and emotions are beautiful things, but if mishandled and abused by our lustful desires and actions, they can harm us, hurt us, and become very dangerous. God created sex, but he did not create promiscuity, it's just another thing that humans perverted. Another example is that God created water, but even the consumption of water in large quantities leads to the dilution of blood vessels, low blood pressure, and eventually death. So as I said things that God created are beautiful and essential to life, but they can be very harmful if we don't use them correctly. You also pointed out your views on God and the chosen people. If we dig deeper into the Bible we can see that Abraham, who was involved with that scenario (Gen. 15:6, Rom 4:3) was righteous and had the correct attitudes toward God, which is why God was favorably disposed to him. His trust and faith in God were the reasons why God chose him and his progeny (Israel). As for the genocide...God is loving and merciful, but he is also a just God (Rom. 6:23, 3:23). It's similar to a modern day judge in court...it would be corrupt and unjust for a judge to let a criminal go without punishment, same thing with God. When it comes to the Old Testament, I know that many people are astonished by the rules and regulations. It was a very different time back then, such as with the menstruation and cleanliness issue. The laws in the Pentateuch were aimed at sanitation and preventing spread of disease/infection in a pre-modern society, which clearly did not understand about germs and bacteria. Eating animals such as pigs and shellfish were banned because they were unclean. Many of these animals carry large quantities of parasites (tapeworms that burrow into brain, and many other organisms that parasitize intestines) that are hard to treat. The same conditions were applicable to human sickness - mankind and the materials they touched were considered unclean after discharge from some sickness or condition. Therefore, their clothes and materials were destroyed or washed after contamination, which helped prevent spread of infection/germs. I believe that the regulations on menstruation were there because of this whole concept, ex. helping to prevent the spread of disease from blood.
As for Jesus...we have all sinned and deserve to die, we all have this death penalty over our heads. God does not want us to go to hell, even though our crimes and actions merit it. This is why he sacrificed part of Himself, His Son, to prevent this fate for us. Sin is a crime against God, and all of us deserve to be tried and punished for our sins, but God gave us grace (the giving of something that is not merited or deserved) and constantly shows mercy on us by forgiving us countless times, no matter what we have done/will do. However, God also gave us free-will, and cannot force us to do or choose anything, including salvation. Even though there were only a few prophets, their revelation from God was made available to all of us through the scriptures that have survived thousands of years, aka The Bible. In fact I remember a few months ago a whole batch of articles were written because they found massive amounts of skeletons and parts of chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea where the escape from Egypt crossing described by the Bible is thought to have occured. Out of all of the religions in the world, I haven't found any of them to contain anything close to the truth/evidence that Christianity and the Bible contain, as well as so many occurrences in my own life and well as in the life of others regarding God and life changing experiences which simply can't be fake. I've actually had a dream about God, where God spoke to me during a very difficult time in my life and I know many other people with similar experiences and numerous books and testimonies written about how God has worked in so many peoples lives. I've been on a few mission trips over the years and to actually see this in real life and to have prayers answered is mind-blowing and have permanently convinced me that God IS real. Sure I've made mistakes, I've done things in my past that I regret, and I've had my doubts, but that's the beauty of God...his agape love and mercy and forgiveness is SO great that he will forgive us and love us no matter what we do. Even if we have sex with 1000 people and smoke and get drunk everyday and murder, we can still be saved and forgiven because we have a merciful and forgiving God! Now I'm not saying to do what many people do and go off and sin and just say that it's ok because you can ask for forgiveness later, then do everything all over again and not try to change. That's not really the way it works haha. I guess the whole thing that spurred my post was frustration over people that claim they are Christians but they have no idea what being a Christian really means. I was not trying at all to say that I'm better than anyone or to belittle anyone, because I'm the same as anyone else, and I'm sorry if the post sounded this way. It's just really sad when you want your friends and so many people to know the truth, to go to heaven, to truly discover happiness, but the lies of this world which are being fed to us nonstop have blinded everyone's sight.
And if you don't mind me asking, I know you used to be a Christian...what made you change your mind?
Thanks again for the feedback, we should chill sometime :]
Since this is your livejournal, I'll give you the last word in the argument about Christianity with those posts and maybe we can chill sometime and perhaps discuss this some more. You are still in my cell phone, you know! Unless you changed your number since like three years ago haha.
I appreciate the thought you put into your rebuttal of my attack, too.
So instead of continuing our mini-debate I will just respond to your question about why I changed from Christian to Atheist.
I'll try and make a long story as short as I can. In March of 2004, I had a religious awakening in which my Christianity rapidly spiraled somewhat out of control. I read the Bible more than I did much of anything else during the Spring Break of that school year, studying the New Testament as much as I could and loving every minute of it. Where this went out of control is in what it caused me to do. I refused to be friends any longer with anyone who was not a Christian and tried to make new friends in the Christian world, at a new baptist church down the street from my house. For some time, almost a full year, I was obsessed with Christian doctrines and studying theology and wanted to be either a minister of a professor of theology. I read John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper - I'm sure you've heard at least some of those names, big time theologians, ministers and reformers from the past and present. Christianity was my whole world.
Something happened around New Years Day of 2005. I got lonely. I wanted my friends back. I returned to my friends, and for the rest of that year my Christianity slowly wore off. I battered back and forth from agnosticism to Protestantism, believing that if any religion was true, it was probably Calvinist Christianity, which I still find to be the most logically consistent religious belief system out there, if only out of bias. But my faith kept wearing off and wearing off over time because I was not really into it and I was more interested in friends and such. Eventually it got to the point where the only thing I was sure of was: There is a God. I knew this because of the famous "argument from design," which I attacked in my above post. The world is so complex that it demands a creator, like a watch demands a maker, a car a factory plant, and so forth.
Then, Christmas 2007, only two-thirds of a year ago, I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, which completely destroyed the argument from design. Since then, I have been an Atheist mostly for logical reasons, though I can't deny past experience led me here, and not just pure reason. We can discuss it some other time, but I find the Bible to be a very barbaric book and in my opinion the entire Christian religion rests on taking some tribesmen at their word when they claim their streak of mass murder and conquest was directed by God - because, really, it is in God's alleged revelation of himself to them from which the entire Christian religion springs forth. I sort of already pointed that out in my earlier post, though, as my belief.
Either way, it's really complicated how I became an Apostate. I am not arrogant enough to claim it was through "pure reason" or "pure logic," as only someone with the tendencies of an arrogant idiot would assert, fancying himself above emotions and experiences, but that's my story, briefly.
Anyways, though, I agree that we should chill sometime. I get pretty bored around here anyway and it would be neat to hang out and chat about all of this / do whatever around Rochester. I was thinking the other day about that one time when I hung out with you and Sarah Wade on my birthday at Brewster in my car - you might not remember it, it was almost three years ago haha.
Ahh unfortunately I got a new phone and I don't have your digits anymore :/ I think I do remember that night :] I used to go there a lot back in the day.
Thirdly, this god of yours, this Christian god is quite simply monstrous, and his monstrous characteristics do more than enough to nearly prove he is simply man-made. First, in the Bible, this god arbitrarily chose a tribe in a remote area of Palestine to be his "chosen people," and then "he" decided that this people had a "right" to that entire land. "He" then ordered them to commit genocide and kill everyone in the entire area without mercy. (Imagine a group of people doing this today and claiming that some god told them to do it - which, of course, happens. We would surely write this god off as made up and invented in order to justify their murdering rampage.)
A quick reading of the first few books of the OT will also show that this god - "he" - is unusually freaked out by menstrual cycles and finds them to be quite disgusting and impure. Maybe he should have thought about this before he made them as part of a natural cycle.
As if to smack us in the face, he then sends "his" "son" to die for us on a cross, as if after committing genocide he had nothing for which to apologize.
All I can say in conclusion is this: It is far from reasonable to believe that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing god out there who simply exists with no explanation, and who takes an extreme interest in my sex life and how much alcohol I consume to the extent that he is willing to send me to hell for "sexual sin," and who is freaked out by menstrual cycles which he created, and who is loving and merciful but has no problem ordering mass killings over a piece of LAND, and who, finally, has no problem sending people to burn and burn and burn and burn and burn in horrible agony and misery for all of eternity because they didn't bow down to him and worship him when he only directly revealed himself to a few prophets in a remote area of the Middle East thousands of years ago.
I apologize if this seemed viscious. But I do not intend to show any respect to views which justify genocide and teach that I will burn in hell, and I do not see any need to refrain from attacking such beliefs through dialogue. This is nothing personal against you, obviously: I have always liked you quite a bit.
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but... natural selection is pure chance.
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natural selection involes chance. but it does not involve completely random changes going out in random directions. there are a bunch of random mutations, but these mutations are "naturally selected" in that, as anybody who took 10th grade biology knows, those animals with favorable mutations survive, and those with unfavorable mutations or no mutations die, to make it more simplistic than it really is. the gradual changes make sense in line with the environment around them, which is "selecting" them, rather than being random changes in random directions.
this is compeletely different from a pure chance theory of human existence, which would say something like: "a bunch of shit exploded and then stuff assembled into a human being." this would be pure chance, and the key "natural SELECTION" element, which only involves chance over millions of years and is not guided by pure chance, would be completely missing. which is why absolutely no one believes any pure chance theory for how life came about.
biologist richard dawkins and others have demonstrated this with computer models in which they set up a program that generates random changes in a certain base shape. these changes represent "generations." dawkins then selects which changes seem to be moving in the direction of whatever shape he is trying to create, discarding the other "offspring." eventally, his basic shape becomes something much more complex and pleasing to the eye. nature does the same thing, by analogy, to random changes, though without being "conscious" of it and without an ultimate goal in mind, of course. it is just an analogy.
i am sure you know all of that as a biology major, obviously, and just didn't make the conclusion that it is, as a result, not "pure chance."
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you know you dont want to argue evolution with me haha
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i made it clear that i do not believe anything is doing any selecting. but what is "selected" - selecting being only an analogy - is "selected" for some reason; there is an explanation. The point is that the gradual changes which take place over time happen for reasons which can be found in the environment. There are reasons one mutation causes an animal to die and another mutation helps an animal reproduce.
of course, the fact that the exact form of intelligent life is the human beings we see walking around us and not something that looks a bit different - well, that could be said to be closer to pure chance, but it still isn't. there is always some sort of reason for why these gradual changes took place, and science's goal is to find those reasons, and NOT simply say, "it was chance," or, "it was god."
in other words: to me, for something to be pure chance implies there is no discernable reason. it could have gone any other way had the dice fallen with different numbers displayed. but biologists look for reasons to explain why one trait was selected and another was not, why certain animals survived and others did not, why the gradual changes went in this direction and not in the other direction. a search for reasons to explain such things is not compatable with a "pure chance" theory.
really, though, we are just believing the same thing and explaining it differently. you say you mean it is random chance because nothing is controlling it, and i agree that nothing is controlling it, but i just say it is not random chance because, even if nothing is controlling it, there are still reasons - causes, explanations beyond the flip of the coin - for why one thing happened and not another.
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But anyway, you made good points in your argument, and I honestly try to not be a close-minded, "because I say so" kind of person, because that doesn't convince anyone and doesn't prove anything. I understand your main points and I have a few arguments that I want you to check out...
To start from the top, I truly believe, and the Bible shows us, that God really is interested in our lives, He's not just a modern, uncaring ruler, unconcerned about anyone but himself. God made us, and He loves us so much that He wants to be involved in our lives, even the miniscule aspects, through the good times and the bad. Although God was the one that created everything, humans are the ones that perverted it. And as we all know, anything done in excess is not good for the body. God made grapes, wheat, potatoes, and fruit but humans perverted this through their acts such as getting drunk on wine, beer, vodka, etc. Alcoholic beverages do not flow freely in nature, are not made by God. When it comes to sex, it is true that God made those impulses and feelings, but he made those specifically for procreation, for bonding between a husband and wife, and emphasizes the importance of staying pure. I believe that sex and feelings and emotions are beautiful things, but if mishandled and abused by our lustful desires and actions, they can harm us, hurt us, and become very dangerous. God created sex, but he did not create promiscuity, it's just another thing that humans perverted. Another example is that God created water, but even the consumption of water in large quantities leads to the dilution of blood vessels, low blood pressure, and eventually death. So as I said things that God created are beautiful and essential to life, but they can be very harmful if we don't use them correctly.
You also pointed out your views on God and the chosen people. If we dig deeper into the Bible we can see that Abraham, who was involved with that scenario (Gen. 15:6, Rom 4:3) was righteous and had the correct attitudes toward God, which is why God was favorably disposed to him. His trust and faith in God were the reasons why God chose him and his progeny (Israel). As for the genocide...God is loving and merciful, but he is also a just God (Rom. 6:23, 3:23). It's similar to a modern day judge in court...it would be corrupt and unjust for a judge to let a criminal go without punishment, same thing with God.
When it comes to the Old Testament, I know that many people are astonished by the rules and regulations. It was a very different time back then, such as with the menstruation and cleanliness issue. The laws in the Pentateuch were aimed at sanitation and preventing spread of disease/infection in a pre-modern society, which clearly did not understand about germs and bacteria. Eating animals such as pigs and shellfish were banned because they were unclean. Many of these animals carry large quantities of parasites (tapeworms that burrow into brain, and many other organisms that parasitize intestines) that are hard to treat. The same conditions were applicable to human sickness - mankind and the materials they touched were considered unclean after discharge from some sickness or condition. Therefore, their clothes and materials were destroyed or washed after contamination, which helped prevent spread of infection/germs. I believe that the regulations on menstruation were there because of this whole concept, ex. helping to prevent the spread of disease from blood.
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Out of all of the religions in the world, I haven't found any of them to contain anything close to the truth/evidence that Christianity and the Bible contain, as well as so many occurrences in my own life and well as in the life of others regarding God and life changing experiences which simply can't be fake. I've actually had a dream about God, where God spoke to me during a very difficult time in my life and I know many other people with similar experiences and numerous books and testimonies written about how God has worked in so many peoples lives. I've been on a few mission trips over the years and to actually see this in real life and to have prayers answered is mind-blowing and have permanently convinced me that God IS real. Sure I've made mistakes, I've done things in my past that I regret, and I've had my doubts, but that's the beauty of God...his agape love and mercy and forgiveness is SO great that he will forgive us and love us no matter what we do. Even if we have sex with 1000 people and smoke and get drunk everyday and murder, we can still be saved and forgiven because we have a merciful and forgiving God! Now I'm not saying to do what many people do and go off and sin and just say that it's ok because you can ask for forgiveness later, then do everything all over again and not try to change. That's not really the way it works haha.
I guess the whole thing that spurred my post was frustration over people that claim they are Christians but they have no idea what being a Christian really means. I was not trying at all to say that I'm better than anyone or to belittle anyone, because I'm the same as anyone else, and I'm sorry if the post sounded this way. It's just really sad when you want your friends and so many people to know the truth, to go to heaven, to truly discover happiness, but the lies of this world which are being fed to us nonstop have blinded everyone's sight.
And if you don't mind me asking, I know you used to be a Christian...what made you change your mind?
Thanks again for the feedback, we should chill sometime :]
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I appreciate the thought you put into your rebuttal of my attack, too.
So instead of continuing our mini-debate I will just respond to your question about why I changed from Christian to Atheist.
I'll try and make a long story as short as I can. In March of 2004, I had a religious awakening in which my Christianity rapidly spiraled somewhat out of control. I read the Bible more than I did much of anything else during the Spring Break of that school year, studying the New Testament as much as I could and loving every minute of it. Where this went out of control is in what it caused me to do. I refused to be friends any longer with anyone who was not a Christian and tried to make new friends in the Christian world, at a new baptist church down the street from my house. For some time, almost a full year, I was obsessed with Christian doctrines and studying theology and wanted to be either a minister of a professor of theology. I read John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper - I'm sure you've heard at least some of those names, big time theologians, ministers and reformers from the past and present. Christianity was my whole world.
Something happened around New Years Day of 2005. I got lonely. I wanted my friends back. I returned to my friends, and for the rest of that year my Christianity slowly wore off. I battered back and forth from agnosticism to Protestantism, believing that if any religion was true, it was probably Calvinist Christianity, which I still find to be the most logically consistent religious belief system out there, if only out of bias. But my faith kept wearing off and wearing off over time because I was not really into it and I was more interested in friends and such. Eventually it got to the point where the only thing I was sure of was: There is a God. I knew this because of the famous "argument from design," which I attacked in my above post. The world is so complex that it demands a creator, like a watch demands a maker, a car a factory plant, and so forth.
Then, Christmas 2007, only two-thirds of a year ago, I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, which completely destroyed the argument from design. Since then, I have been an Atheist mostly for logical reasons, though I can't deny past experience led me here, and not just pure reason. We can discuss it some other time, but I find the Bible to be a very barbaric book and in my opinion the entire Christian religion rests on taking some tribesmen at their word when they claim their streak of mass murder and conquest was directed by God - because, really, it is in God's alleged revelation of himself to them from which the entire Christian religion springs forth. I sort of already pointed that out in my earlier post, though, as my belief.
Either way, it's really complicated how I became an Apostate. I am not arrogant enough to claim it was through "pure reason" or "pure logic," as only someone with the tendencies of an arrogant idiot would assert, fancying himself above emotions and experiences, but that's my story, briefly.
Anyways, though, I agree that we should chill sometime. I get pretty bored around here anyway and it would be neat to hang out and chat about all of this / do whatever around Rochester. I was thinking the other day about that one time when I hung out with you and Sarah Wade on my birthday at Brewster in my car - you might not remember it, it was almost three years ago haha.
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But yesss let's hang out!
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