few questions

[euphoric1dr]

hi guys, thanks for your encouraging words on my last post =) you're right - we can't beat ourselves up for mistakes; the most important thing is the intention to do good and live a vegan lifestyle, because we truly want to and believe i in these values. thanks again

Comments

[amolibertas]

I don't really know the answer to the first one-- Honey is like throw up that they feed their babies-- so it's like going up to a mama bird. punchin her in the stomach, taking the "food" and leaving her to go find more for her nest. I also know that the most likely method of extracting honey is gassing/smoking them to leave them unable to attack-- I would assume their might be some deaths in this process

Friendly wikipedia

[amolibertas]

a lifestyle promoting the consumption of un-cooked, un-processed, and often organic foods as a large percentage of the diet. Raw foodists typically believe that the greater the percentage of raw food in the diet, the greater the health benefits. Raw foodism or a raw diet is usually equated with raw veganism in which only raw plant foods are eaten, but other raw foodists emphasize raw meat and other raw animal products. Depending on the type of lifestyle and results desired, raw food diets may include a selection of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds (including sprouted whole grains such as gaba rice), eggs, fish (such as sashimi), meat (such as carpaccio), and non-pasteurized/non-homogenized dairy products (such as raw milk, raw milk cheese, and raw milk yogurt). Raw foodists can be divided between those that advocate raw vegetarianism or raw veganism, those that advocate a raw omnivorous diet, and those that advocate a diet of only raw animal foods (carnivorous

Re: Friendly wikipedia - honey

[amolibertas]

Vegans and honey
During early vegan movements in the 1940s, The Vegan Society in England defined veganism as "the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals."[60] Vegans do not eat honey as it is considered an animal product.[61] There is active debate in the vegan community on the status of honey as an animal product and its appropriateness for human consumption, though it is regarded as non-vegan on food labels, and most vegans consider honey a non-vegan product. [62]

Vegans will usually eat agave nectar instead of honey, which some consider superior due to its low glycemic index (GI), longer shelf life, similar taste, and quality as it stays smooth and doesn't crystalise like honey does

Re: Friendly wikipedia - smoking the bees

[amolibertas]

The fact that smoke calms bees has been known since ancient times; however, the scientific explanation was unknown until the 20th century and is still not fully understood. Smoke masks alarm pheromones (which include various chemicals, e.g., isopentyl acetate[1]) that are released by guard bees or bees that are injured during a beekeeper's inspection. The smoke creates an opportunity for the beekeeper to open the beehive and work while the colony's defensive response is interrupted. In addition, smoke initiates a feeding response in anticipation of possible hive abandonment due to fire. When a bee consumes honey the bee's abdomen distends, making it difficult to make the necessary flexes to sting. (The latter has always been the primary explanation of the smoker's effect, since this behavior of bees is easily observable.)

[bitspike]

True, the honey 'business' does vary quite widely. But the integral part of the process which sees the bees being used to make a product for us that we don't need to survive, causing them to work harder and resulting in the (often) unintentional deaths of many, means we can never truly justify the theft and consumption of honey.

As 'respectful' as local honey farmers may seem to you, it would be much more respectful to leave bees alone to live out their own lives in peace.

[kcanadensis]

That was a really succinct way to explain the vegan position on honey without being offensive or accusatory, and I agree with it. Thank you.

The last bit is somewhat questionable to me because bees (domesticated) are sometimes necessary to grow the foods we eat, and domesticated bees would not exist in the US if they weren't kept by people. I don't know this subject in-and-out, however, but I do know other insects and wild wasps/bees and also mammals pollinate, but from personal experience, things bear more fruit when you keep bees on your property. That doesn't mean you need to take the excess honey, but it does mean they can't just be left alone to "live in peace". Unless you just mean left alone at their constructed hive.

[bitspike]

". . . things bear more fruit when you keep bees on your property. That doesn't mean you need to take the excess honey, but it does mean they can't just be left alone to "live in peace". Unless you just mean left alone at their constructed hive."I do admit that I don't know a lot about the lives of bees, and that my position may be viewed as a little idealistic, but the way I understand it is this: bees are necessary for much food and other plantlife production and therefore it is important for farms etc. to have bees around. However, just because they are in close proximity to farms does not mean we should 'take advantage of the opportunity to steal some of their honey'. As bees are so important, their presence should be justification enough for their existence without having to resort to direct exploitation of the hive

[kcanadensis]

I come from more of a biology background than many here, I suspect (and my girlfriend who has been attacked in these threads is the daughter of an ENTOMOLOGIST) and I've also had the pleasure of seeing bees being kept by people who love them and take good care of them. I have also kept up with beekeeping practices via a blog by someone who does it more as a hobby. This happened rather by accident as I watch the persons blog for news about birding

[mindfulness]

I'm sure bees would be doing a lot better, with a lot less stress in their lives if we weren't harvesting the food ie honey, that is meant for the bees themselves. They can't be doing as well as they naturally would be if left alone. Sure there would be other predators but not as bad as continual harvesting.

Also, why is there justification for being non-vegan in a vegan community? It doesn't strike me as appropriate. When I wasn't vegan but was frequenting vegan communities, I kept such opinions to myself, out of politeness and respect.

[mindfulness]

Well the word vegan means what it means, no matter what you say. *shrugs*

[mindfulness]

Do you think your comments are insulting? Do two wrongs make a right? I don't think I was insulting.

[mindfulness]

Well, language has official rules and meanings. Of course, you can apply them how you like, as language is flexible, but there's a good case for following formal grammar. On other issues I'm rarely at all black/white.

I don't think I was insulting. We can respect our difference of opinion on that I guess. It's not a black/white issue.