I had issues with LJ in general, and decided to delete my personal blog. I don't know many vegans, so I reached out to the virtual world for some moral support from fellow vegans
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I don't know the particular issue that this person is talking about, but enough people have left this community because of this issue that it bears taking seriously.
An old friend of mine used to tell me that if 1 person tells you there's a problem, you don't necessarily need to listen. But if 3 people all say the same thing, you should start paying attention.
A lot more than 3 vegans have said that this group has turned into an unkind place. Including one of the most honored members of the community - I think that was her username. I have been on this community for 5 years and I've seen the content become more abusive to people.
I wish that this community was more welcoming to people in the early stages of veganism, people who need help making a commitment, people who are just curious even. There is veganhaven already for being hardcore. There is no good community on LJ for people who are just learning. vegetarianism actively discourages talk about the benefits of veganism.
Making this a place where people feel welcome is better for the animals. Because making this a place where people feel welcome will help more people to become a vegan. If people had treated me 5 years ago the way some people are being treated today, I think it would have slowed my progress towards becoming a vegan. But I was welcomed, coached and helped.
Not everyone is immediately set on fire by veganism and animal rights and that's something we have to accept. Most people are not encouraged by harsh words. Let's start treating each other with kindness. This doesn't mean we have to be any less vegan, any less firm in our beliefs. It just means that we use kind words.
It means that we treat the people on this community with the same kindness we'd treat the animals we're trying to help. Kindness towards other people thinking about veganism is kindness towards animals, because it's more likely to produce more vegans.
Honestly, despite my love of snark I've never given a rude comment in this comm or told anyone 'you're not vegan, go eat a steak'. This person is being a dick. I have no reason to take them seriously. If you can't handle a little criticism(not even directed at the OP as it wasn't even their post they refer to in their reasoning) the internet is not for you.
People have made rude comments in this community, however.
And I don't think that the internet should serve as some kind of excuse for impoliteness. Many people say things like "stay off the internet," but the internet can just as easily be made into a place where people are polite and kind to each other, if people make the effort to act in that way.
The fact that we're part of a community which has the potential to advocate for a cause we all believe in, the potential to change minds and save animals and make the world a better place, should encourage us to try harder to be welcoming, helpful and good advocates for veganism.
It's not just our interests at stakes, it's the interest of animals. Unfortunately many of the people who care about the animals most passionately can't see that they hurt their own cause when they are unkind to newcomers. They end up hurting animals when their intention is the opposite.
I wouldn't care about this as much if it were just an issue of people having hurt feelings, but there is a hell of a lot more at stake here. Every human interaction has reverberations whether in person or on the internet. I just hope we can change this community so that more of its reverberations are positive ones.
How is 'more at stake'? It's a flounce in a community on LJ. If they stop being a vegan because of that then they weren't really committed to it to begin with. People are assholes. People are bigger assholes with a monitor separating them from the rest of the world. Yes, in theory people could be nice and coddling though chances are it isn't going to happen.
It's just not true that if someone is discouraged they weren't committed enough in the first place. Perhaps they weren't as committed as another person, but the way we treat incoming vegans, newcomers, people with questions can definitely influence whether or not they become vegans.
The first vegetarians I knew didn't give me any substantial information about the ethics of their choice when I met them. When I asked them about it everything they said was vague. Sure, I could have thought to research it on my own, but I didn't think of it. I just felt they were silly on some level.
The first vegans I knew didn't reach out to me, either. It's not our responsibility to reach out, but I can almost guarantee that I would have gone vegan 10 years earlier if I'd met the right people at the right time. That would have been 10 more years of animals not being eaten. And I am a committed vegan.
Who we meet, how we're treated, is essential in the choices we make in life.
To just throw up our hands and say that it's not our responsibility or nothing will ever change, why do you want to do that? Why are you invested enough in people being unkind on the internet to engage in this discussion with me?
As to "flouncing" - it could be flouncing or it could be someone calling attention to a basic flaw in this community. I'd go with the latter due to the sheer volume of people who've pointed out the exact same flaw.
The thing is that they are coming to this comm of their own free will. They made the choice to join and they made the choice to leave. At no point does that line of actions dictate that you need to call "the majority of you are unthinking brainwashed judgmental assholes." before you leave. It's not simply pointing out flaws, it's being a dick.
She called people judgmental assholes cause she was hurt. And possibly because they were being assholes, really. And like I've said, it's really the best and most appropriate community on LJ to join if you want to become a vegan. But we've made the best and most appropriate community on LJ for new vegans an unwelcoming, even discouraging place.
Sure it was her choice - but what about our choice? Are we making the best choice for this community? For animals?
About 3 and a half years ago, I was very close to deciding to go vegan. I attended a vegan potluck. The folks there were SO obnoxious ("How could you give your child a Norwegian name! Don't you know Norway practices/wants to practice whaling!?!?!") that I never went back, and it was another 2 years before I finally decided to give up dairy and eggs. So yeah, being over-the-top obnoxious can hurt.
Yeah, that was, um, new levels of extreme. I don't think even the hardest core of the hard core vegans on here would jump on me for that. They might jump on me for having kids in the first place, but still ... I'm just pointing out that it is possible to offend someone who does care and will eventually come around into a setback. I'm still leery of using the term vegan to describe myself.
I don't understand how people's ignorant attitudes can effect some of you this way. Going vegan is a choice you make for yourself and for the animals; why should it be influenced by jerks? Sorry your feelings were hurt, but why couldn't you just ignore them and do what you felt was right?
Positive and negative associations are quite powerful. It's great that you don't seem to be effected by them, but a lot of people are and negative associations can be demoralizing and damaging especially to people who are trying to change their diet, lifestyle, thinking. These people are treading water until they learn how to swim. It doesn't do them any good if a superstar ~*elite*~ swimmer holds them underwater when they were asking for a little assistance/support/etc.
"Going vegan is a choice you make for yourself and for the animals; why should it be influenced by jerks? Sorry your feelings were hurt, but why couldn't you just ignore them and do what you felt was right?"
THIS. I have been less and less active in this group because of this very reason. I understand where the frustration and snark comes from, for sure, but it truly is counterproductive if this community is interested in affecting real change.
Could we work with the mods to make this a safer, more positive space?
An old friend of mine used to tell me that if 1 person tells you there's a problem, you don't necessarily need to listen. But if 3 people all say the same thing, you should start paying attention.
A lot more than 3 vegans have said that this group has turned into an unkind place. Including one of the most honored members of the community - I think that was her username. I have been on this community for 5 years and I've seen the content become more abusive to people.
I wish that this community was more welcoming to people in the early stages of veganism, people who need help making a commitment, people who are just curious even. There is veganhaven already for being hardcore. There is no good community on LJ for people who are just learning. vegetarianism actively discourages talk about the benefits of veganism.
Making this a place where people feel welcome is better for the animals. Because making this a place where people feel welcome will help more people to become a vegan. If people had treated me 5 years ago the way some people are being treated today, I think it would have slowed my progress towards becoming a vegan. But I was welcomed, coached and helped.
Not everyone is immediately set on fire by veganism and animal rights and that's something we have to accept. Most people are not encouraged by harsh words. Let's start treating each other with kindness. This doesn't mean we have to be any less vegan, any less firm in our beliefs. It just means that we use kind words.
It means that we treat the people on this community with the same kindness we'd treat the animals we're trying to help. Kindness towards other people thinking about veganism is kindness towards animals, because it's more likely to produce more vegans.
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And I don't think that the internet should serve as some kind of excuse for impoliteness. Many people say things like "stay off the internet," but the internet can just as easily be made into a place where people are polite and kind to each other, if people make the effort to act in that way.
The fact that we're part of a community which has the potential to advocate for a cause we all believe in, the potential to change minds and save animals and make the world a better place, should encourage us to try harder to be welcoming, helpful and good advocates for veganism.
It's not just our interests at stakes, it's the interest of animals. Unfortunately many of the people who care about the animals most passionately can't see that they hurt their own cause when they are unkind to newcomers. They end up hurting animals when their intention is the opposite.
I wouldn't care about this as much if it were just an issue of people having hurt feelings, but there is a hell of a lot more at stake here. Every human interaction has reverberations whether in person or on the internet. I just hope we can change this community so that more of its reverberations are positive ones.
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The first vegetarians I knew didn't give me any substantial information about the ethics of their choice when I met them. When I asked them about it everything they said was vague. Sure, I could have thought to research it on my own, but I didn't think of it. I just felt they were silly on some level.
The first vegans I knew didn't reach out to me, either. It's not our responsibility to reach out, but I can almost guarantee that I would have gone vegan 10 years earlier if I'd met the right people at the right time. That would have been 10 more years of animals not being eaten. And I am a committed vegan.
Who we meet, how we're treated, is essential in the choices we make in life.
To just throw up our hands and say that it's not our responsibility or nothing will ever change, why do you want to do that? Why are you invested enough in people being unkind on the internet to engage in this discussion with me?
As to "flouncing" - it could be flouncing or it could be someone calling attention to a basic flaw in this community. I'd go with the latter due to the sheer volume of people who've pointed out the exact same flaw.
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Sure it was her choice - but what about our choice? Are we making the best choice for this community? For animals?
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I'm just pointing out that it is possible to offend someone who does care and will eventually come around into a setback. I'm still leery of using the term vegan to describe myself.
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+1!
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Could we work with the mods to make this a safer, more positive space?
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