When my cat comes and sits on my lap and looks at me with squinty eyes, I know that he wants petting and attention. He isn't verbally communicating anything to me. He's showing me what he wants with his body and his actions. I haven't communication in english with my cat ever, and I never will. But I know he loves me, and I know when he wants things, and when he doesn't want things (and have several scarred scratches from when I didn't "listen to him!).
If a hen wanted her egg, why wouldn't she lay it somewhere where she could take care of it? Why leave it somewhere where it will get stepped on or rot? Why wouldn't the hen come rushing up to me and peck and squawk when I try to take her unfertilized egg? If I think about what I would do in the hen's position...if the eggs I released during my menstrual cycle were big enough to eat, and if I layed them wherever (like in the middle of KMart or something) and abandoned them...I wouldn't care of someone took it. If I wanted it I would lay it somewhere safe.
There is value in non-verbal communication, so I'm not sure your assertion that verbal communication as the only valid form of communication is the best way of looking at it.
I have not heard of hens laying eggs willy-nilly, unless they are trying to hide them so that they are not taken. It is hard to take eggs from a hen in brooding. Hens lay eggs for their own needs, not ours (they have a right to their eggs). You are not taking anything from your cat when he sits on your lap (besides his company); he is requesting a favor- this isn't really comparable to the hen& her eggs. If a hen were to lay eggs with no regard (and you could clearly identify it as such), then you would not be taking it from her. I have not run into any chickens who lay their eggs with disregard (but this is personal experience). I'm just saying that from my interactions with chickens, I can't think of a time when I could be clear that I would be taking a discarded egg.
Non-verbal communication is a form of communication, but it's not everything, and it can't really be used to give permission that well. Your cat gives you permission to pet him, but I can't think of a way a hen could give permission to take an egg (when she abandons an egg, it's not hers any more, so there is no need for permission; but if you can't prove she's abandoned it, you can't prove she would be okay with you taking it). Laying an egg where you keep her doesn't indicate she wants you to take it- it just means she considers where you keep her safe.
Is that true for factory farms though? I can't imagine any animal feeling safe with five other hens stuffed into a tiny little crate like that, especially when the hens routinely get into fights and peck each other to death.
To me this sounds like: "I found a baby in a store! The parent must not have wanted it since they left it here! I'll take it home and keep is as my own!"
My initial reasons for going vegan were based on animal welfare, but they've developed into animal rights. Basically, by my views, it's just not your egg to use.
An egg is not the same as discarded hair or dung because discarded hair and/or dung almost never benefit the animal that discarded them. However, a hen frequently cares lovingly for eggs or eats them when they're not fertilized. Therefore, she values her eggs in some way.
The argument that some animals build nests out of hair or dung is also irrelevant because some animals eat other animals. And I don't do that.
Here's what Peaceful Prairie has to say about the eggs their hens lay: "Well, they are not our eggs to do anything with, they belong to the hens and no one else. The chickens will actually eat their own eggs as it helps to replenish their bodies’ nutrients. When we find unbroken eggs, we break them open for the chickens to eat - which they love."
Exactly. We have bred hens to lay more eggs than their bodies can handle and eating their own eggs is the only way to get some of those nutrients back. (for girls)I mean seriously, imagine getting your period 75% more than you already do and how much that would mess you up.
Animals are not for our use, they exist for themselves.
That argument would work if they were fertilized eggs, you're right. These are unfertilized eggs though...like a "chicken period" as some people call it.
I don't know. I've seen the question the OP posted about so many times, and there's never a consensus. There's parts of the solution that make sense from both sides. But then, I really don't believe in moral absolutes, even with animal issues, and I think that's what we're dealing with here: Is it ok to use something that came from an animal, ever? My answer would be yes, under very specific circumstances. Every vegan has their limits.
However, we're dealing largely with chickens who've been bred or otherwise genetically altered and therefore lay eggs more often than they naturally would. This causes them to lose nutrients, and many hens will eat their unfertilized eggs for nutrition.
Regardless of the possible value that an unfertilized egg may hold to a chicken, she should have the right to do what she pleases with it. Personally, I'd feel horribly violated if someone started taking my menstruation and feel doubly violated if they were eating it or cooking with it.
I think it boils down to why you're an ethical vegan: animal welfare or animal rights.
I'm not saying that no other factors affect these decisions, but I believe that one's true deep down feelings on animal rights and animal welfare will greatly affect how they look at these gray areas.
If a hen wanted her egg, why wouldn't she lay it somewhere where she could take care of it? Why leave it somewhere where it will get stepped on or rot? Why wouldn't the hen come rushing up to me and peck and squawk when I try to take her unfertilized egg? If I think about what I would do in the hen's position...if the eggs I released during my menstrual cycle were big enough to eat, and if I layed them wherever (like in the middle of KMart or something) and abandoned them...I wouldn't care of someone took it. If I wanted it I would lay it somewhere safe.
There is value in non-verbal communication, so I'm not sure your assertion that verbal communication as the only valid form of communication is the best way of looking at it.
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Non-verbal communication is a form of communication, but it's not everything, and it can't really be used to give permission that well. Your cat gives you permission to pet him, but I can't think of a way a hen could give permission to take an egg (when she abandons an egg, it's not hers any more, so there is no need for permission; but if you can't prove she's abandoned it, you can't prove she would be okay with you taking it). Laying an egg where you keep her doesn't indicate she wants you to take it- it just means she considers where you keep her safe.
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My initial reasons for going vegan were based on animal welfare, but they've developed into animal rights. Basically, by my views, it's just not your egg to use.
An egg is not the same as discarded hair or dung because discarded hair and/or dung almost never benefit the animal that discarded them. However, a hen frequently cares lovingly for eggs or eats them when they're not fertilized. Therefore, she values her eggs in some way.
The argument that some animals build nests out of hair or dung is also irrelevant because some animals eat other animals. And I don't do that.
Here's what Peaceful Prairie has to say about the eggs their hens lay:
"Well, they are not our eggs to do anything with, they belong to the hens and no one else. The chickens will actually eat their own eggs as it helps to replenish their bodies’ nutrients. When we find unbroken eggs, we break them open for the chickens to eat - which they love."
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Animals are not for our use, they exist for themselves.
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I don't know. I've seen the question the OP posted about so many times, and there's never a consensus. There's parts of the solution that make sense from both sides. But then, I really don't believe in moral absolutes, even with animal issues, and I think that's what we're dealing with here: Is it ok to use something that came from an animal, ever? My answer would be yes, under very specific circumstances. Every vegan has their limits.
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Regardless of the possible value that an unfertilized egg may hold to a chicken, she should have the right to do what she pleases with it. Personally, I'd feel horribly violated if someone started taking my menstruation and feel doubly violated if they were eating it or cooking with it.
I think it boils down to why you're an ethical vegan: animal welfare or animal rights.
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I don't think it can ever be that simple.
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But those things are still going to be interpreted differently be different people, as with all other ethical principles.
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