30 minutes

[varrin]

I haven't written a blog entry in a while. It seems I've had some complicated (= long) trains of thought and just never seem to finish them. The result is that, while my facebook status gets updated semi-regularly, there's not much substantial content flowing from my brain. In the interest of solving that, I hereby give myself 30 minutes to get

Comments

[justusgirlz]

What Mary said sounds more like resignation than rapturous joy at the prospect. Kindof an old-school, begrudging "Yes, dear." I went and read a Luke 1:26-38. You left out the part where she acknowledged being a servant. "I am the Lord's servant . . ." which, back in the day, that's what women were - second class citizens -well, heh, not *even* citizens at that. Besides, like you said, the angel said she ". . . *will* be with child and give birth to a son, and *you are to* give him the name Jesus . . .The Holy Spirit *will* come upon you, and the power of the most high *will overshadow* you." Emphasis mine, of course. There is NO question whether or not she has a choice - these things WILL happen. The angel's words are commandments, not requests. Then again, maybe she was given a choice - do this or be sent to hell. It's just not in the verse. But again, her answer certainly has no joy in it, (and you'd think she'd be giddy with delight at the prospect of bearing God's son, no?) and that says volumes.

I went back to the original story from which this was derived (the Birth of Horus) - but it's all hieroglyphs and the translation doesn't say whether or not Isis was for/against/neutral to the idea, neither does it's retelling in the story of (virgin) Queen Mut-em-ua, the mother of Amen-hetep. So the original version(s) are no help in answering that question.

[varrin]

Yes, the servant reply would be what was expected of a woman at the time. Obviously the context for the story was not the 21st century western world. And your conclusion regarding choice doesn't really fit with the whole of the Biblical narrative. Commands were given and broken by men *and* women (obviously that still happens). And there are examples of individual commands (though, overall, that's less common) that are not followed (think Jonah). As to whether there is a choice or not, the (apparent) paradox of God's sovereignty and our free will is important to understand as fully as practical. The truth is, every Biblical actor had a choice. Many of them responded positively as Mary did, but many of them did not in very big ways (Eve, Adam, Abraham, David, Jonah, even Peter). Given the overall context, Mary's response appears fitting (i.e. not culturally bizarre) and positive.

As for the assertion that Christ is a story derived from Horus (and/or other ancient myths), I'm sure we won't settle that debate here. I've heard that line of reasoning on many occasions and, for many reasons, it never added up. When I explored the specifics of Horus some time back, I came to the same conclusion. A skeptical (of Christianity) conspiracy theorist type would easily be interested and persuaded by such things, but a good look at the evidence leads me to conclude that there are far better reasons to disbelieve (in Christianity) than the existence of the Horus story.

V-

[justusgirlz]

For Mary to break this commandment she would have had to have aborted the fetus at some point, I'm thinking. Back in the day, if they could even find a surgeon or midwife willing to do that (good luck with that), the risk of death would have been greater than the risk of dying in childbirth. It also would have been costly. Silphium, which was used both as a contraceptive and as an abortifacient during that time was rare and expensive - so she probably didn't have access to it, either. Which means, the only choice she had was to risk death or carry through with the pregnancy. Remember, she was told by a male angel that this was going to (will) happen (with no option reported that she had a choice(may or could happen)) and being a woman in ancient times (who considered herself a servant) she would do as she was commanded to do. Her mildly 'positive' response, which was neither joyous nor grateful at being chosen, really needs to be looked at in the context of her time, her position as a sub-citizen, her religious belief that she had to submit to God, her father, her soon-to-be husband and any other male she encountered. She does not sound thrilled about this *at all*.

As for Eve, I don't think she considered herself a servant when she broke the commandment. She also wasn't living in a society where women were considered and treated as property. Also, being newly created, I think she would have been more child-like than women of a later era, so her breaking of the commandment would have been in the spirit of a child disobeying a parent due to peer pressure rather than a willful 'raising the middle finger' at God.

As for the Horus/Jesus myth similarities, you're right we won't settle that one either, lol. There are plenty of other similar myths and festivals that were integrated from older religions into Christianity that we can debate about, if you like. And you're right, there are far better reasons to disbelieve than the existence of that one story.

Glad we can debate it like civilized people. :D