No more Heroes? My response to a ESC assessment that really hacked me off
Ok if I do ever put stuff on line this may end up being a response video. This is responding to something I viewed which is six years old (perhaps like so much of this just finished year of ESC appropriately enough a lot of roads lead back to the last Kyiv contest). It is proof positive of what they say about opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and they are full of the proverbial at least some of the time but occasionally you will find one so much so that you feel compelled to respond to it. I guess no one but me will care much about this however this one just got to me so much that I had to put something down about it.
If you become an Uber fan of anything as I do and are as terminally on line as me you are going to very quickly become reconciled to the idea that not everyone has the same opinion as you and whilst this is true of everything even stuff which it should be obvious. (There are some truths mostly universally acknowledged like be excellent to each other -and judge people by character rather than by what they look like, who they love as long as they're adult and consenting and what their gender ID is - both fem or masc or in between and cis or trans, people kill more people much more quickly and easily if they can get access to a gun so you wanna do something about that if you can, vaccines are vital to the world's survival, evolution exists, climate change is happening due to too many CO2 emissions and we really ought to be trying to do something about that before our world is fragged beyond all hope and the world is a globe that travels around our sun.)
However this is more true and more acceptable when it comes to entertainment/art were there is no provable or objective judgement and it doesn't really matter what someone believes as long as they're not a dick about it. Sometimes in spite of my recognition of that I do get annoyed to the extent where I end up ranting at someone I fundamentally disagree with but with a content creator rather than a just rando person in the comments (and sometimes even then - I had the experience of being as Tessellating Hexagons would say shooketh, destroyed etc. by finding that the Azeri fanboy who seemed to disagree with me on everything shared my love of Zitti E Bouni and Hatrid mun Sigra). However there is opinion, which is usually not enough to make me not want to not bother with someone's content ever again or rant on an entire post, and then there's Lethargic Sloth's hotter than the surface on the sun take on the 2015 winner Heroes, which was delivered during his rating of ESC winners between 2008 and 2017.
So what's so epically bad about this one? Well! I know that this was a bit of polarizing winner (I mean they kinda all are but this one was one of the more talked about ones) Lots of people wanted a different song to win and quite a few spent their pennies voting for different songs to win - in fact Heroes has the lowest televote ranking of any ESC winner ever - it was third behind Russia (a song which my own issues with will be disclosed below) and the winner of the televote which had the highest by percentage televote score of all time until this year and was only topped by an entry from a country that is literally being invaded. So I get that all the people who passionately loved a song who was appropriately enough was called Grande Amore were not terribly impressed they got this one as a winner instead. Also the 2015 contest was stacked with absolutely brilliant songs - I've argued to fans of the Irish effort Playing with Numbers it failed to qualify partly because of this - so wanting another song to have won is completely understandable.
However….. even in a stellar year there is going to be a lot of stuff that's very bog standard and the odd song that's frankly a bit crap so to argue that 20 songs are 'infinitely better' than the winner is about the closest thing to an opinion that is provably bullshit that you are ever going to get. I am not and never would claim that even about a song like the 2008 winner Believe which is probably my least favourite winner in the era he covers where you've got around 40 countries competing so it's even remotely plausible. My least favourite winner of all time is in 1999 so for 20 songs to be 'infinitely better' than that it would mean only 2 wouldn't be as there were only 23 competing that year and even though I hate that song I know that is ridiculous. Believe less so but considering that just off the top of my head for 2008 I can name Leto Svet, Irelande Douze Points, Baila Chiki Chiki (which I rather watch than Believe because it's funny but I'm not gonna kid myself it's a even a better song let alone 'infinitely' better) probably if I'm honest maybe even Wolves of the Sea (which again I kinda love) and Even If which are all worse than it.
You are probably getting by the amount of time that judgement appears in quotes that I have a major issue with its use. Now I get that on line that some exaggeration for effect is a factor in entertainment but if you are going to express a controversial opinion about a song that was popular enough to win then you might wanna dial back on it a bit because it goes beyond that into being blatently OTT hyberbole.
However he doubles down by naming all the countries whose entries that he considers fall into this category - some like Italy (whose song Grande Amore was the public's favourite), Estonia, Belgium, Norway and Latvia I can kinda see it (they are great and distinctive songs and if Heroes isn't your thing I get how you just might think like that) although it shocks me he names Latvia when he's admitted he doesn't even like Aminita's style - yet it's 'infinitely' better than a song that won - whatever dude! Even Slovenia which was an excellent and distinctive song that was severely nerfed by being the final opener I can kinda get.
However he names Russia - which I think is treacly pablum - to which the singer (even before knowing she endorsed Putin's invasion of Ukraine so is a proven hypocrite - the million voices of the title go as long as long as they're not Ukranian right?, Bleep you lady dog!) - comes across as so performatively sincere it looks fake and the booing of the song at the time shows that some people at least were aware how painfully hypocritical it was that Russia were sending a song like that was when it was invading the Crimea and treating it's LBGT+ population like dogshit. I profoundly dislike that song but I'm still not going to argue there were twenty even just better songs, in fact I pointed out in a comment about the Irish entry that although I didn't like this song, many did and it was well constructed and sung.
He will go on later to say that these songs are more creative and interesting than Heroes - here I really beg to differ and I don't know how anyone can really justify that as A Million Voices is pretty generic especially since he doesn't include either Australia or Israel in his list which I think are way more creative and interesting than A Million Voices is.
Spain - ok maybe it was underrated and nerfed by staging but significantly better?
Montenegro - Knez is a great singer but the fact the song gets muddled and overwritten by Mall in my head doesn't say great things about Audio as a song - maybe it's just me but I don't do that with Heroes and yet Audio is 'infinately better'. I think reasonable doubt would be at play if we putting this theory on trial just sayin'. [I might be being unfair here - but Audio is still a fairly standard balkan ballad, ok maybe not but the fact it took a few listens to stick it in my head and differentiate from Mall still doesn't exactly prove his point, albet a very good one and Mall is still a much better and innovative song which is doing something way more innovative with that style of song]
Malta, Ireland and Czech Republic - decent songs that some people are understandably more than a bit cross didn't do better, probably should have Qed but the fact they didn't Q doesn't scream infinitely better. Yes other factors do play into things, it's easier for some countries to qualify than others and quite a few Swedish songs would have done significantly worse and even possibly not even Qed - definitely Dance You Off - had a country like North Macedonia (who didn't qualify either this year and who the juries stopped a qualification they earned with the televote to put through bubblegum nonsense from a former Swedish winner in 2008) or the Czech Republic sent them. But to use an example from the one year Sweden was an NQ - you can argue that Horehronie is better than Satellite or even deserved to win instead of it but if you went to the extent Sloth goes to here it would be a comically stupid argument and seen as such. Also as I pointed out to Irish stans the problem is some good songs just tended to get overlooked because 2015 is very ballad heavy and if you're one of a lot of particular type it gets harder to grab attention and votes and means you have to be better than you would otherwise to stand out, so memorable is a bit relative but had Ireland been as superior to Heroes as Sloth says then it would done so. Again one of the criteria he uses is memorable and it would have qualified had what he said been true, evidentally it's not. He's failing to factor in that maybe not everyone likes ballads as much as he does. I'm not even the worst for being ballad adverse either the You Tuber Noosh 101 doesn't rate this year as there are far too many ballads for her taste. Before everyone gets on my case and points out that of course a not fan of ballads isn't gonna rate ballads - however I submit the case of the ballad hater listening to the Top 10 of 2021 who ended up with Tout l'Univers as his second fav and the personal favs for each year submitters of their lists on You Tube both the bop and the ballad fans who had Zitti E Bouni as their pick for the same year. Sometimes something is that good that it will transend genre bias - and surely something that superior will do that - if twenty songs really are that objectively of that much of a higher quality then they will qualify over something that inferior. Right? Well either that's not true or Sloth is kinda talking out of his butt - take your pick.
Cyprus - this one was even more controversial than Heroes in some ways as it certainly attracted as many peed off fans who felt that it helped 'rob' songs they prefered - you know like Malta or Czech Republic. Sure it's lyrically clever in a way you don't appreciate at first but musically it's a fairly generic if nicely done ballad.
Armenia - again lyrically interesting but whilst good from the bit I heard again is it really earth scattering enough to be light years better than Sweden? I certainly don't think so and it's not self evident. Besides, Sloth don't you hate political content in songs?
Ok record scratch as I made a mistake here - he doesn't list Armenia but Albania of which Groot who has way more musical knowledge both me and Sloth thinks is a decent song hampered by a bad vocal performance. Ok maybe if you're being cynical you might think that Groot has an inherant bias towards Heroes (which he has in 5th of the ranking of the songs for that year) because he's Swedish but this has not stopped him being brutal about some Swedish songs that he doesn't like, for example in his assessment of the songs for 2016 he states that the host entry is so bad that if it wasn't a host entry then it would have NQed. Now this was before the contest so he didn't know it would come 5th but it doesn't change his opinion of the song and I would have agreed with him at the time and still think it's a shame he isn't right but that's by the by it still shows he's isn't going to like a song just because it's Swedish. He has Grande Amore top of his ranking for 2015 so he is agreeing with the televoters here but with Norway in 2nd so only up to a degree. For me the Albanian song goes in the bucket with North Macedonia, Romania, Portugal and Greece as I simply can't remember it - in one ear and out the other as my eldery relos would have said when they were alive - so much for infinately better than Heroes which I loved on the first listen.
However Sloth's exclusion of Armenia doesn't weaken my case but strengthens it as I at least remember the Armenian song and quite like the chorus and it's saying something and is truly memorable and creative and doing something a bit different - and yet Ludicrous Sloth excludes it even by default - is it because it was political or because his taste is rather poor? Yes I know the latter is subjective but if you're out there throwing stones to this extent then you haven't really got a leg to stand on if your glass house gets bricked in return
Azerbaijan - as for Armenia and Romania without the interesting lyrical content. Groot says he likes the song, enjoys it and can appreciate it and then he just forgets about it when it isn't been played in front of him. It was, like the Danish song in 2017 that Sloth somehow to me somewhat inexplicably thinks is the bees knees but I find boring, generic and struggle to remember when I can't hear it, a very borderline Qer. Now again like NQers that doesn't mean your song is bad, because lets face it robberies do happen, but again if something was that much better, memorable, more innovative or creative than the winner wouldn't have qualified much more comfortably?
Georgia - this is pretty good but substantially more creative and interesting than Heroes? Really? See comments for Armenia above because whilst good it doesn't seem to be that innovative but fairly bog standard ESC stuff albeit well done. Probably why it got one of Georgia's best results actually as it's probably one of the least experimental and interesting things they've ever sent as Georgia are usually too out there for most people and perhaps it's an indication that those qualities don't necessarily equal a good song. Their entry for the previous year to the one in question i.e 2014 is certainly interesting, memorable and creative but I'd be one of the few who'd argue it's actually any good (including many of the people televoting and on the juries as it came stone dead last in the competition as a whole, Groot thinks the 2014 entry 20 Minutes to Earth has too many ideas but ends up a bit of a mess trying to incorporate all of them) and that certainly doesn't make it better than the winner, which Sloth doesn't like either, considering it boring.
North Macedonia, Romania, Belarus, Portugal and Greece - if these are sooo much more memorable than Heroes then why the eff don't I remember them? Sure I've only seen brief clips of them but if they were that exponentially more memorable then that wouldn't matter and like with many other examples fans would have picked up on them and exposed me to them. Romania has interesting things to say but I know that because I read about it in a book not because the song leapt out at me (I'm being a bit mean here because the song grows on me the more I listen to it and having heard it a few more times since Groot and another guy have gone through all the Romanian songs - but Heroes I'm afraid blew me away from the first listen - it's still unfair as I've heard Heroes as a complete song whereas I've not really heard the Romanian song in full - but the bit I've heard is cool but that's still only one more song - where I'm prepared to admit sort of where Sloth is coming from) . Although there are some songs that have really grown on me with subsequent listens to become favs I'm not going to argue even a beautiful song like Love in Rewind which has now become my fav 2011 song is infinitely more memorable than the winner Running Scared. [Romania was distinctive in Groot's review of the 2015 but I still can't quite remember how it goes and the others even after that were kinda wallpaper especially Portugal and Belarus which I don't even remember Groot really reviewing - it's like which ones were they? I couldn't even tell you what they were called along with Greece (see below for comments about Portugal for Greece and then apply that too - several more listens in more compilations and can still tell you absolute zilch about the Greek track not it's name or a single thing about it, couldn't even say for sure if it's a bloke or lady sining it - I think it's a single woman singing in English but shrug - yup that memorable! so much for 'infinately better' than the winner - at least you freaking remember the winner) - I mean I could tell you that Belarus sent Solylea - my spelling sucks - in 2013 and Cheesecake in 2014 and then Learn How to Fly in 2016 - but 2015? Nah not a clue. Recently it's made a list of most watched NQs but both it and N Mace are actually lower than Denmark, Moldova, the Netherlands and even Finland - look I'm gonna bet I like that one more than Sloth does, more than most people, I come from a post punk musical tradition, I appreciate it's good intentions in trying to represent the neurally atypical and ergo I don't think it's the worst song that year but even I acknowledge it's not great I'm just saying this to prove a point. Belarus on stands out with the lyrical genuis like 'Time is like thunder, huh huh, like thunder, huh huh' so I can see that it's so much more original, memorable and inventive than Heroes, not the slightest bit generic or like a million other ESC songs at all - no siree! I realise Sloth if you're reading this that you're an American and don't get true sarcasm but that's an example of it right there. If Sloth really thinks that's one of his 'infinately better' songs then I'm just left frustrated that I'm not using a format where I can pop a handy face palm emjoi into this post. (It's grown on me so that's maybe a bit harsh but even so he can't really claimed that's its 'infinately better' than Heroes and have one of his criteria as more memorable and more innovative and experiemental when Time is certainly not either - it's a catchy, fun song and that's quite a good listen but if Heroes is not doing anything groundbreaking musically nor is Time and Time does sound a lot more like a million over ESC entries than Heroes does with, as I've taken the mick out of here, considerably less interesting lyrics) Hearing North Macedonia again on that list just reinforces what little I do remember about the song which is that's it's a pretty generic ballad - it's a quite to very nice generic ballad but even so (I know that a lot of people love this song and think the staging nerfed it but I kinda stand by that, again it's a very nice ballad but to have it as an 'infinately' better on the grounds of being memorable, experimental or interesting even by default is just really really deluded) - I can't help feeling that Sloth set it a high bar that only a true ballads supremist who really hated Heroes could really think it attained. As with Belarus it is with Portugal for me I think that I could tell you that they sent Suzy and Que Se Tua in 2014 but 2015? nope! I kinda find a lot of Porteguese entries before their winner very unmemorable but, apart from Suzy, most of the ones that are this for the wrong reasons - like the 2006 Barbara Dex award winners Non Stop, although I do quite like their 2011 entry which many do not. (Heard a few more times now and STILL can't remember it and some other comments have talked about how unmemorable it is so I'm not alone so this is another tick to the this guy is full of it column) - I'm afraid whatever they sent in 2015 is NOT one of the exceptions.
Germany - and here's where the argument really collapses under the weight of its own ludicrousness. Black Smoke isn't terrible and arguably didn't deserve nul points (although for anyone who is interested there is a channel called Nul Points who debates these things - the lady said it did and the bloke that it didn't) but to describe a song that even the most generous to it would at least understand why it got not that many points, to even by default describe it as infinitely better and more memorable, creative and interesting than Heroes is frankly laughable. The Nul Points people talk about how unoriginal, unimaginative and bog standard the song is. The only reason I'm not bringing its bland staging into it as that I'm bored to death with the argument Sweden won exclusively because of the staging. (Ok maybe I'm slightly on shaky ground with a few people thinking it was robbed but it may have deserved better but it's still not a very original, interesting or experimental song and I think it actually sounds a bit dated. I also think Austria who Sloth doesn't think is 'infinately' better than Heroes was a better song and was a much better candidate for being effing robbed by being as they 'celebrated' by singing 'the zeroes of their time...zereooos, oooos' especially since, unlike Black Smoke, it would have still have ended up with a zero televote score under the combined system).
Look I get that sometimes you get a winner you don't like and that it can be frustrating when you think a significant amount of songs (including a few NQs) deserved it more but usually with some reflection and time to process it I can sort reconcile myself to some people's dislikes of my favs and especially if I can get a road map of their own preferences and prejudices which we all have. However this one struck me as so beyond the pale that I had to vent about it. I think sometimes you've got to see past not being a fan of some songs that did well and that does include me in a way as it is something that I have to actively practice. There have been songs that are legends in the past that I do not like and never will. I know that sooner or later a song is going to win that I will hate and I will have make peace with that. I was kinda bracing myself a bit to that this year with Slo Mo. However I've got enough perspective to know that 20 songs in 2022 were not infinitely better than Slo Mo and better is a pretty subjective criteria to begin with. The criteria by which it's rather extreme fanbase judge it make it their GOAT and I'm not going to quarrel with that - it's just not what I'm here for. Calling something a 'steaming pile of crap' without its staging isn't a valid arguement and, whilst there are some songs that I think are overated and wouldn't have done so well had the staging not been so top notch, I'm not going to argue that the Azeri runner up of 2013 (although I'm not going to dismiss the idea that the Azeris might have purchased a few televotes there or for Running Scared although I don't hate that song) or Russia 2016 are garbage songs that 20 songs that year are infinately better than. Well for one thing I like living (enough) and death threats from those who disagree with you aren't unknown but it's a rubbish arguement.
I think another clue to the exagerated nature of his statement is the fact that he states proudly that the song is 27th in his ranking and he stands by that. Now on the surface this seems to back up what he says except when you look at it closely - now at least 20 songs are 'infinately' better but only another 6 are only slightly better or better but not 'infinately' better. That doesn't seem very logical does it? I mean there should be some more graduation or variation between better or 'infinately' better than 6 songs, right? Also if something is 'a steaming pile of crap' when divorced from it's staging and infinately worse than at least 20 other songs then it, shouldn't it be in the 30s in a ranking of songs or are you saying that 12 songs are even worse than that? Now you could make a case for about three of them with that being the case - including San Marino who he so humourously trolled us with being better than Sweden (oh please contain me so that my sides don't split with laughter over that one, that was also sarcasm for the benefit of those who don't get that) the others being Finland and the UK but that's still only 3 songs and surely even something as boring as French entry ought to be better by that logic. I'm pointing out Sloth's utter lack of consistency here - he has a bit of a tendancy to rank winning songs in the 20s in his ranking too but a)he doesn't dismiss the last two winners he did that to (both also favs or in the case of Ukraine one of them of mine in those years) quite so badly b)if your taste is THAT out of step with what BOTH the televoters and juries like that really ought to be telling you something.
I'm totally, well ok mostly after some thought and with a cool off period in some cases to be honest, fine with a winner I love being low in someone else's ranking and I would point out in return that Tessalating Hexagons has Sloth's beloved Amar Pelos Dois in the low 30's in his ranking. However Tess admits it's just because he just doesn't get why the song is so rated and that it's not for him. Not everything is going to be for everyone - I've seen someone ranking Grande Amore in the 20s out of 2015 contestants, I've argued with the person who thought Yohanna and Is It True? were robbed in 2009 and described Ryback as a second rate karoke singer (Groot who has more musical knowledge than her would profoundly disagree with that - describing Fairytale's vocals as excellent although he likes Is It True? more than I do by quite some margin), Tessalating Hexagons also thinks Euphoria is extremely overated, the American YTuber Todd in the Shadows hates Arcade and both Viola and Tout l'Univers - dismissing Gjon's Tears with 'I don't care about breath control' and he also can't remember Die Diepte at all apart from the fact that S10 looks almost streotypically Dutch. Tess Hex doesn't understand why Spirit of the Night is a load of shite and I've met a fan in comments threads who won't let you criticise Valentina Monetta or any of the songs she's been involved with. Hey one of my fav winners is Toy and I totally get why a lot of people absolute hate that song including one of my fav reviewers, a lovely guy called Alexandrumic, especially since part of the reason I loved it on first listen is it's kinda bonkers which I appreciate but I get that many do not. So I'm not saying that criticism and yuking someone else's yum can't be valuable. I know Tessalating Hexagons doesn't rate Heroes at all and he probably has similar sentiments to Sloth but he expresses them in a much more reasonable and qualified way with a bigger awareness that people will disagree with him and that it's his opinion and not just a statement that this so called arguement is going to pee people off. Tess admits that even though he finds it annoying sometimes that he'd rather people felt free to voice their opinions even if some of them he finds contary to his own, a bit much and even kinda incomprehensible. I think we all do I think - both find things that make us go 'you what?!' and accept that it takes all sorts when it comes to taste.
Tess also doesn't say stupid things like Sloth does with Believe that he rates it because it's got a violin in it. I appreciate a good violin but you still need an interesting song and me saying that would be like arguing AWS deserved to win in 2018 because they had rock guitars in their song because I like rock guitars (and I think AWS were a bit underated but there were a lot of great songs in 2018 including the one that was last with the juries and the one that came last in the final and a handful that didn't qualify so I guess that's to be expected) or worse still the Bulgarian entry this year which had a great guitar solo which I appreciate but was also a bit of non event which is being charitable about it. Then Sloth goes on to say that the ropey live vocals for Running Scared don't bother him because he likes the song - and I'm like 'hang on mate! if you're not going to attach any importance to the live performance then what's the point of having a live performance? Why not just play all the songs videos and have the televote and jury votes based on that? We could have had a contest in 2020. I mean I get your assessement of the songs your rules but Jesus if the live performance doesn't matter to you and you're just here for the music..... man, than you need to state that from the off because otherwise it looks like a goalpost shift'. As stated earlier he goes on to call Rise Like A Phoenix boring but what it makes it worse for me is he does so without any attempt to state why he thinks that and surely that's kinda a vitual part of criticism. It seems very inconsistent to abuse something you don't like with an exagerated rant and then later on just offer no reason at all beyond your disinterest in something else to dismiss it with.
What I'm saying is that by all means express an opinion but own it as that and don't use hyperbolic, which is borderline self owning parody, statements to make your case when you know that's contentious. Sure not every winner you are going to like but you can at least respect what the artist is trying to do or qualifiy it with twenty more songs were much more to your taste and a few you thought were vastly superior. It's so a typical American douchebag thing to say that 'I don't like therefore it must suck and not just suck but infinately suck (I'm not impressed when Brits like Deban of ESC United pull that crap too) compared to twenty other songs'. You can think it sucks, you can think twenty odd other songs are better or a few songs are a stratospheric amount better and you can state why you aren't impressed by something without arrogantly dismissing it and by extension the taste of those who do. It's the line between being a free thinker expressing a full and frank opinion and a bit of an edgelord with a massive sense of entitlement who is under the delusion that only their evaluation is valid.
If you become an Uber fan of anything as I do and are as terminally on line as me you are going to very quickly become reconciled to the idea that not everyone has the same opinion as you and whilst this is true of everything even stuff which it should be obvious. (There are some truths mostly universally acknowledged like be excellent to each other -and judge people by character rather than by what they look like, who they love as long as they're adult and consenting and what their gender ID is - both fem or masc or in between and cis or trans, people kill more people much more quickly and easily if they can get access to a gun so you wanna do something about that if you can, vaccines are vital to the world's survival, evolution exists, climate change is happening due to too many CO2 emissions and we really ought to be trying to do something about that before our world is fragged beyond all hope and the world is a globe that travels around our sun.)
However this is more true and more acceptable when it comes to entertainment/art were there is no provable or objective judgement and it doesn't really matter what someone believes as long as they're not a dick about it. Sometimes in spite of my recognition of that I do get annoyed to the extent where I end up ranting at someone I fundamentally disagree with but with a content creator rather than a just rando person in the comments (and sometimes even then - I had the experience of being as Tessellating Hexagons would say shooketh, destroyed etc. by finding that the Azeri fanboy who seemed to disagree with me on everything shared my love of Zitti E Bouni and Hatrid mun Sigra). However there is opinion, which is usually not enough to make me not want to not bother with someone's content ever again or rant on an entire post, and then there's Lethargic Sloth's hotter than the surface on the sun take on the 2015 winner Heroes, which was delivered during his rating of ESC winners between 2008 and 2017.
So what's so epically bad about this one? Well! I know that this was a bit of polarizing winner (I mean they kinda all are but this one was one of the more talked about ones) Lots of people wanted a different song to win and quite a few spent their pennies voting for different songs to win - in fact Heroes has the lowest televote ranking of any ESC winner ever - it was third behind Russia (a song which my own issues with will be disclosed below) and the winner of the televote which had the highest by percentage televote score of all time until this year and was only topped by an entry from a country that is literally being invaded. So I get that all the people who passionately loved a song who was appropriately enough was called Grande Amore were not terribly impressed they got this one as a winner instead. Also the 2015 contest was stacked with absolutely brilliant songs - I've argued to fans of the Irish effort Playing with Numbers it failed to qualify partly because of this - so wanting another song to have won is completely understandable.
However….. even in a stellar year there is going to be a lot of stuff that's very bog standard and the odd song that's frankly a bit crap so to argue that 20 songs are 'infinitely better' than the winner is about the closest thing to an opinion that is provably bullshit that you are ever going to get. I am not and never would claim that even about a song like the 2008 winner Believe which is probably my least favourite winner in the era he covers where you've got around 40 countries competing so it's even remotely plausible. My least favourite winner of all time is in 1999 so for 20 songs to be 'infinitely better' than that it would mean only 2 wouldn't be as there were only 23 competing that year and even though I hate that song I know that is ridiculous. Believe less so but considering that just off the top of my head for 2008 I can name Leto Svet, Irelande Douze Points, Baila Chiki Chiki (which I rather watch than Believe because it's funny but I'm not gonna kid myself it's a even a better song let alone 'infinitely' better) probably if I'm honest maybe even Wolves of the Sea (which again I kinda love) and Even If which are all worse than it.
You are probably getting by the amount of time that judgement appears in quotes that I have a major issue with its use. Now I get that on line that some exaggeration for effect is a factor in entertainment but if you are going to express a controversial opinion about a song that was popular enough to win then you might wanna dial back on it a bit because it goes beyond that into being blatently OTT hyberbole.
However he doubles down by naming all the countries whose entries that he considers fall into this category - some like Italy (whose song Grande Amore was the public's favourite), Estonia, Belgium, Norway and Latvia I can kinda see it (they are great and distinctive songs and if Heroes isn't your thing I get how you just might think like that) although it shocks me he names Latvia when he's admitted he doesn't even like Aminita's style - yet it's 'infinitely' better than a song that won - whatever dude! Even Slovenia which was an excellent and distinctive song that was severely nerfed by being the final opener I can kinda get.
However he names Russia - which I think is treacly pablum - to which the singer (even before knowing she endorsed Putin's invasion of Ukraine so is a proven hypocrite - the million voices of the title go as long as long as they're not Ukranian right?, Bleep you lady dog!) - comes across as so performatively sincere it looks fake and the booing of the song at the time shows that some people at least were aware how painfully hypocritical it was that Russia were sending a song like that was when it was invading the Crimea and treating it's LBGT+ population like dogshit. I profoundly dislike that song but I'm still not going to argue there were twenty even just better songs, in fact I pointed out in a comment about the Irish entry that although I didn't like this song, many did and it was well constructed and sung.
He will go on later to say that these songs are more creative and interesting than Heroes - here I really beg to differ and I don't know how anyone can really justify that as A Million Voices is pretty generic especially since he doesn't include either Australia or Israel in his list which I think are way more creative and interesting than A Million Voices is.
Spain - ok maybe it was underrated and nerfed by staging but significantly better?
Montenegro - Knez is a great singer but the fact the song gets muddled and overwritten by Mall in my head doesn't say great things about Audio as a song - maybe it's just me but I don't do that with Heroes and yet Audio is 'infinately better'. I think reasonable doubt would be at play if we putting this theory on trial just sayin'. [I might be being unfair here - but Audio is still a fairly standard balkan ballad, ok maybe not but the fact it took a few listens to stick it in my head and differentiate from Mall still doesn't exactly prove his point, albet a very good one and Mall is still a much better and innovative song which is doing something way more innovative with that style of song]
Malta, Ireland and Czech Republic - decent songs that some people are understandably more than a bit cross didn't do better, probably should have Qed but the fact they didn't Q doesn't scream infinitely better. Yes other factors do play into things, it's easier for some countries to qualify than others and quite a few Swedish songs would have done significantly worse and even possibly not even Qed - definitely Dance You Off - had a country like North Macedonia (who didn't qualify either this year and who the juries stopped a qualification they earned with the televote to put through bubblegum nonsense from a former Swedish winner in 2008) or the Czech Republic sent them. But to use an example from the one year Sweden was an NQ - you can argue that Horehronie is better than Satellite or even deserved to win instead of it but if you went to the extent Sloth goes to here it would be a comically stupid argument and seen as such. Also as I pointed out to Irish stans the problem is some good songs just tended to get overlooked because 2015 is very ballad heavy and if you're one of a lot of particular type it gets harder to grab attention and votes and means you have to be better than you would otherwise to stand out, so memorable is a bit relative but had Ireland been as superior to Heroes as Sloth says then it would done so. Again one of the criteria he uses is memorable and it would have qualified had what he said been true, evidentally it's not. He's failing to factor in that maybe not everyone likes ballads as much as he does. I'm not even the worst for being ballad adverse either the You Tuber Noosh 101 doesn't rate this year as there are far too many ballads for her taste. Before everyone gets on my case and points out that of course a not fan of ballads isn't gonna rate ballads - however I submit the case of the ballad hater listening to the Top 10 of 2021 who ended up with Tout l'Univers as his second fav and the personal favs for each year submitters of their lists on You Tube both the bop and the ballad fans who had Zitti E Bouni as their pick for the same year. Sometimes something is that good that it will transend genre bias - and surely something that superior will do that - if twenty songs really are that objectively of that much of a higher quality then they will qualify over something that inferior. Right? Well either that's not true or Sloth is kinda talking out of his butt - take your pick.
Cyprus - this one was even more controversial than Heroes in some ways as it certainly attracted as many peed off fans who felt that it helped 'rob' songs they prefered - you know like Malta or Czech Republic. Sure it's lyrically clever in a way you don't appreciate at first but musically it's a fairly generic if nicely done ballad.
Armenia - again lyrically interesting but whilst good from the bit I heard again is it really earth scattering enough to be light years better than Sweden? I certainly don't think so and it's not self evident. Besides, Sloth don't you hate political content in songs?
Ok record scratch as I made a mistake here - he doesn't list Armenia but Albania of which Groot who has way more musical knowledge both me and Sloth thinks is a decent song hampered by a bad vocal performance. Ok maybe if you're being cynical you might think that Groot has an inherant bias towards Heroes (which he has in 5th of the ranking of the songs for that year) because he's Swedish but this has not stopped him being brutal about some Swedish songs that he doesn't like, for example in his assessment of the songs for 2016 he states that the host entry is so bad that if it wasn't a host entry then it would have NQed. Now this was before the contest so he didn't know it would come 5th but it doesn't change his opinion of the song and I would have agreed with him at the time and still think it's a shame he isn't right but that's by the by it still shows he's isn't going to like a song just because it's Swedish. He has Grande Amore top of his ranking for 2015 so he is agreeing with the televoters here but with Norway in 2nd so only up to a degree. For me the Albanian song goes in the bucket with North Macedonia, Romania, Portugal and Greece as I simply can't remember it - in one ear and out the other as my eldery relos would have said when they were alive - so much for infinately better than Heroes which I loved on the first listen.
However Sloth's exclusion of Armenia doesn't weaken my case but strengthens it as I at least remember the Armenian song and quite like the chorus and it's saying something and is truly memorable and creative and doing something a bit different - and yet Ludicrous Sloth excludes it even by default - is it because it was political or because his taste is rather poor? Yes I know the latter is subjective but if you're out there throwing stones to this extent then you haven't really got a leg to stand on if your glass house gets bricked in return
Azerbaijan - as for Armenia and Romania without the interesting lyrical content. Groot says he likes the song, enjoys it and can appreciate it and then he just forgets about it when it isn't been played in front of him. It was, like the Danish song in 2017 that Sloth somehow to me somewhat inexplicably thinks is the bees knees but I find boring, generic and struggle to remember when I can't hear it, a very borderline Qer. Now again like NQers that doesn't mean your song is bad, because lets face it robberies do happen, but again if something was that much better, memorable, more innovative or creative than the winner wouldn't have qualified much more comfortably?
Georgia - this is pretty good but substantially more creative and interesting than Heroes? Really? See comments for Armenia above because whilst good it doesn't seem to be that innovative but fairly bog standard ESC stuff albeit well done. Probably why it got one of Georgia's best results actually as it's probably one of the least experimental and interesting things they've ever sent as Georgia are usually too out there for most people and perhaps it's an indication that those qualities don't necessarily equal a good song. Their entry for the previous year to the one in question i.e 2014 is certainly interesting, memorable and creative but I'd be one of the few who'd argue it's actually any good (including many of the people televoting and on the juries as it came stone dead last in the competition as a whole, Groot thinks the 2014 entry 20 Minutes to Earth has too many ideas but ends up a bit of a mess trying to incorporate all of them) and that certainly doesn't make it better than the winner, which Sloth doesn't like either, considering it boring.
North Macedonia, Romania, Belarus, Portugal and Greece - if these are sooo much more memorable than Heroes then why the eff don't I remember them? Sure I've only seen brief clips of them but if they were that exponentially more memorable then that wouldn't matter and like with many other examples fans would have picked up on them and exposed me to them. Romania has interesting things to say but I know that because I read about it in a book not because the song leapt out at me (I'm being a bit mean here because the song grows on me the more I listen to it and having heard it a few more times since Groot and another guy have gone through all the Romanian songs - but Heroes I'm afraid blew me away from the first listen - it's still unfair as I've heard Heroes as a complete song whereas I've not really heard the Romanian song in full - but the bit I've heard is cool but that's still only one more song - where I'm prepared to admit sort of where Sloth is coming from) . Although there are some songs that have really grown on me with subsequent listens to become favs I'm not going to argue even a beautiful song like Love in Rewind which has now become my fav 2011 song is infinitely more memorable than the winner Running Scared. [Romania was distinctive in Groot's review of the 2015 but I still can't quite remember how it goes and the others even after that were kinda wallpaper especially Portugal and Belarus which I don't even remember Groot really reviewing - it's like which ones were they? I couldn't even tell you what they were called along with Greece (see below for comments about Portugal for Greece and then apply that too - several more listens in more compilations and can still tell you absolute zilch about the Greek track not it's name or a single thing about it, couldn't even say for sure if it's a bloke or lady sining it - I think it's a single woman singing in English but shrug - yup that memorable! so much for 'infinately better' than the winner - at least you freaking remember the winner) - I mean I could tell you that Belarus sent Solylea - my spelling sucks - in 2013 and Cheesecake in 2014 and then Learn How to Fly in 2016 - but 2015? Nah not a clue. Recently it's made a list of most watched NQs but both it and N Mace are actually lower than Denmark, Moldova, the Netherlands and even Finland - look I'm gonna bet I like that one more than Sloth does, more than most people, I come from a post punk musical tradition, I appreciate it's good intentions in trying to represent the neurally atypical and ergo I don't think it's the worst song that year but even I acknowledge it's not great I'm just saying this to prove a point. Belarus on stands out with the lyrical genuis like 'Time is like thunder, huh huh, like thunder, huh huh' so I can see that it's so much more original, memorable and inventive than Heroes, not the slightest bit generic or like a million other ESC songs at all - no siree! I realise Sloth if you're reading this that you're an American and don't get true sarcasm but that's an example of it right there. If Sloth really thinks that's one of his 'infinately better' songs then I'm just left frustrated that I'm not using a format where I can pop a handy face palm emjoi into this post. (It's grown on me so that's maybe a bit harsh but even so he can't really claimed that's its 'infinately better' than Heroes and have one of his criteria as more memorable and more innovative and experiemental when Time is certainly not either - it's a catchy, fun song and that's quite a good listen but if Heroes is not doing anything groundbreaking musically nor is Time and Time does sound a lot more like a million over ESC entries than Heroes does with, as I've taken the mick out of here, considerably less interesting lyrics) Hearing North Macedonia again on that list just reinforces what little I do remember about the song which is that's it's a pretty generic ballad - it's a quite to very nice generic ballad but even so (I know that a lot of people love this song and think the staging nerfed it but I kinda stand by that, again it's a very nice ballad but to have it as an 'infinately' better on the grounds of being memorable, experimental or interesting even by default is just really really deluded) - I can't help feeling that Sloth set it a high bar that only a true ballads supremist who really hated Heroes could really think it attained. As with Belarus it is with Portugal for me I think that I could tell you that they sent Suzy and Que Se Tua in 2014 but 2015? nope! I kinda find a lot of Porteguese entries before their winner very unmemorable but, apart from Suzy, most of the ones that are this for the wrong reasons - like the 2006 Barbara Dex award winners Non Stop, although I do quite like their 2011 entry which many do not. (Heard a few more times now and STILL can't remember it and some other comments have talked about how unmemorable it is so I'm not alone so this is another tick to the this guy is full of it column) - I'm afraid whatever they sent in 2015 is NOT one of the exceptions.
Germany - and here's where the argument really collapses under the weight of its own ludicrousness. Black Smoke isn't terrible and arguably didn't deserve nul points (although for anyone who is interested there is a channel called Nul Points who debates these things - the lady said it did and the bloke that it didn't) but to describe a song that even the most generous to it would at least understand why it got not that many points, to even by default describe it as infinitely better and more memorable, creative and interesting than Heroes is frankly laughable. The Nul Points people talk about how unoriginal, unimaginative and bog standard the song is. The only reason I'm not bringing its bland staging into it as that I'm bored to death with the argument Sweden won exclusively because of the staging. (Ok maybe I'm slightly on shaky ground with a few people thinking it was robbed but it may have deserved better but it's still not a very original, interesting or experimental song and I think it actually sounds a bit dated. I also think Austria who Sloth doesn't think is 'infinately' better than Heroes was a better song and was a much better candidate for being effing robbed by being as they 'celebrated' by singing 'the zeroes of their time...zereooos, oooos' especially since, unlike Black Smoke, it would have still have ended up with a zero televote score under the combined system).
Look I get that sometimes you get a winner you don't like and that it can be frustrating when you think a significant amount of songs (including a few NQs) deserved it more but usually with some reflection and time to process it I can sort reconcile myself to some people's dislikes of my favs and especially if I can get a road map of their own preferences and prejudices which we all have. However this one struck me as so beyond the pale that I had to vent about it. I think sometimes you've got to see past not being a fan of some songs that did well and that does include me in a way as it is something that I have to actively practice. There have been songs that are legends in the past that I do not like and never will. I know that sooner or later a song is going to win that I will hate and I will have make peace with that. I was kinda bracing myself a bit to that this year with Slo Mo. However I've got enough perspective to know that 20 songs in 2022 were not infinitely better than Slo Mo and better is a pretty subjective criteria to begin with. The criteria by which it's rather extreme fanbase judge it make it their GOAT and I'm not going to quarrel with that - it's just not what I'm here for. Calling something a 'steaming pile of crap' without its staging isn't a valid arguement and, whilst there are some songs that I think are overated and wouldn't have done so well had the staging not been so top notch, I'm not going to argue that the Azeri runner up of 2013 (although I'm not going to dismiss the idea that the Azeris might have purchased a few televotes there or for Running Scared although I don't hate that song) or Russia 2016 are garbage songs that 20 songs that year are infinately better than. Well for one thing I like living (enough) and death threats from those who disagree with you aren't unknown but it's a rubbish arguement.
I think another clue to the exagerated nature of his statement is the fact that he states proudly that the song is 27th in his ranking and he stands by that. Now on the surface this seems to back up what he says except when you look at it closely - now at least 20 songs are 'infinately' better but only another 6 are only slightly better or better but not 'infinately' better. That doesn't seem very logical does it? I mean there should be some more graduation or variation between better or 'infinately' better than 6 songs, right? Also if something is 'a steaming pile of crap' when divorced from it's staging and infinately worse than at least 20 other songs then it, shouldn't it be in the 30s in a ranking of songs or are you saying that 12 songs are even worse than that? Now you could make a case for about three of them with that being the case - including San Marino who he so humourously trolled us with being better than Sweden (oh please contain me so that my sides don't split with laughter over that one, that was also sarcasm for the benefit of those who don't get that) the others being Finland and the UK but that's still only 3 songs and surely even something as boring as French entry ought to be better by that logic. I'm pointing out Sloth's utter lack of consistency here - he has a bit of a tendancy to rank winning songs in the 20s in his ranking too but a)he doesn't dismiss the last two winners he did that to (both also favs or in the case of Ukraine one of them of mine in those years) quite so badly b)if your taste is THAT out of step with what BOTH the televoters and juries like that really ought to be telling you something.
I'm totally, well ok mostly after some thought and with a cool off period in some cases to be honest, fine with a winner I love being low in someone else's ranking and I would point out in return that Tessalating Hexagons has Sloth's beloved Amar Pelos Dois in the low 30's in his ranking. However Tess admits it's just because he just doesn't get why the song is so rated and that it's not for him. Not everything is going to be for everyone - I've seen someone ranking Grande Amore in the 20s out of 2015 contestants, I've argued with the person who thought Yohanna and Is It True? were robbed in 2009 and described Ryback as a second rate karoke singer (Groot who has more musical knowledge than her would profoundly disagree with that - describing Fairytale's vocals as excellent although he likes Is It True? more than I do by quite some margin), Tessalating Hexagons also thinks Euphoria is extremely overated, the American YTuber Todd in the Shadows hates Arcade and both Viola and Tout l'Univers - dismissing Gjon's Tears with 'I don't care about breath control' and he also can't remember Die Diepte at all apart from the fact that S10 looks almost streotypically Dutch. Tess Hex doesn't understand why Spirit of the Night is a load of shite and I've met a fan in comments threads who won't let you criticise Valentina Monetta or any of the songs she's been involved with. Hey one of my fav winners is Toy and I totally get why a lot of people absolute hate that song including one of my fav reviewers, a lovely guy called Alexandrumic, especially since part of the reason I loved it on first listen is it's kinda bonkers which I appreciate but I get that many do not. So I'm not saying that criticism and yuking someone else's yum can't be valuable. I know Tessalating Hexagons doesn't rate Heroes at all and he probably has similar sentiments to Sloth but he expresses them in a much more reasonable and qualified way with a bigger awareness that people will disagree with him and that it's his opinion and not just a statement that this so called arguement is going to pee people off. Tess admits that even though he finds it annoying sometimes that he'd rather people felt free to voice their opinions even if some of them he finds contary to his own, a bit much and even kinda incomprehensible. I think we all do I think - both find things that make us go 'you what?!' and accept that it takes all sorts when it comes to taste.
Tess also doesn't say stupid things like Sloth does with Believe that he rates it because it's got a violin in it. I appreciate a good violin but you still need an interesting song and me saying that would be like arguing AWS deserved to win in 2018 because they had rock guitars in their song because I like rock guitars (and I think AWS were a bit underated but there were a lot of great songs in 2018 including the one that was last with the juries and the one that came last in the final and a handful that didn't qualify so I guess that's to be expected) or worse still the Bulgarian entry this year which had a great guitar solo which I appreciate but was also a bit of non event which is being charitable about it. Then Sloth goes on to say that the ropey live vocals for Running Scared don't bother him because he likes the song - and I'm like 'hang on mate! if you're not going to attach any importance to the live performance then what's the point of having a live performance? Why not just play all the songs videos and have the televote and jury votes based on that? We could have had a contest in 2020. I mean I get your assessement of the songs your rules but Jesus if the live performance doesn't matter to you and you're just here for the music..... man, than you need to state that from the off because otherwise it looks like a goalpost shift'. As stated earlier he goes on to call Rise Like A Phoenix boring but what it makes it worse for me is he does so without any attempt to state why he thinks that and surely that's kinda a vitual part of criticism. It seems very inconsistent to abuse something you don't like with an exagerated rant and then later on just offer no reason at all beyond your disinterest in something else to dismiss it with.
What I'm saying is that by all means express an opinion but own it as that and don't use hyperbolic, which is borderline self owning parody, statements to make your case when you know that's contentious. Sure not every winner you are going to like but you can at least respect what the artist is trying to do or qualifiy it with twenty more songs were much more to your taste and a few you thought were vastly superior. It's so a typical American douchebag thing to say that 'I don't like therefore it must suck and not just suck but infinately suck (I'm not impressed when Brits like Deban of ESC United pull that crap too) compared to twenty other songs'. You can think it sucks, you can think twenty odd other songs are better or a few songs are a stratospheric amount better and you can state why you aren't impressed by something without arrogantly dismissing it and by extension the taste of those who do. It's the line between being a free thinker expressing a full and frank opinion and a bit of an edgelord with a massive sense of entitlement who is under the delusion that only their evaluation is valid.