FREE-FOR-ALL META COMMENT-A-THON

[upupa_epops]

Old news: lj is dead. Everyone is crazy busy, or they have other reasons not to be here. No one has time to read those huge meta posts we used to write once upon a time. But maybe we can all find ten minutes to do this:

FREE-FOR-ALL META COMMENT-A-THON!

Comments

[kwritten]

Is it just me, or does your opinion of Dawn depend heavily on the age you were when you watched?
I actually talk to people about this a lot and it really doesn't. I have talked to people who watched in when they were older who can't stand Dawn and people who were younger who also don't like her. Likewise, I know a lot of people who watched when they were older and felt a lot of empathy for Dawn. Also people who watched as teens and hugely identified with Dawn. I personally watched BtVS in full in my early twenties. (To be fair, I saw "Once More with Feeling" and a few other late-season episodes while in HS, but didn't really get serious and watch the entire series until I was a senior in college.)

So... no. I've done polls and stuff to see if this is true. I also thought that maybe it depended upon HOW you view the series - late arriver, mainliner, in-time viewer; but everything about that was inconclusive, also. It really is a deeply personal reaction - much like most of anything, really.

But as far as a specific trend in Dawn-hate or Dawn-love, the only thing that I have found is fandom. Since there is a large part of fandom that is violently opposed to Dawn and carries that banner high (searching tumblr tags gives you a strong hint of this), that can have an affect on a viewer's experience. Which can be varied. Some people reject fandom's hate on principle - others fall into it.

until I realize--oh--it's Buffy's birthday when this is happening
I see this as an intentional manipulation on the part of the writers. Buffy's birthday is always a disaster - it is a trope that they use as often as possible.

Also (imo) finding out that you are not actually a real person, that your whole life is a lie, that you are possibly not even human, that your entire family has been lying to you, and that the reason why you exist is to be an object that other people try to steal and take - - - is far more traumatic than a ruined birthday. Her entire world falls down around her ears and (tbh) she takes it rather well all things considered. She's fourteen (or just a few months) old, confused, terrified, and thoroughly traumatized by something that she read in a book, sitting on the floor with a vampire.

Imagine if at fourteen you found out on your older sister's birthday that you were adopted and every one knew but you. Including your friends. It's not that you would intentionally. ruin your sister's bday. It's that - woah that is a huge amount of information to be unloaded on a day that is supposed to be about someone else.

Also, as a big sister, I can tell you that if my baby girl was adopted or found out a terrible secret about our family on my birthday; I really wouldn't be thinking of me or ever get upset about it. We have some dark, deep bullshit in my family and I've done my best to protect my sister from the worst, to tell her things gently when the time is right, when I felt like she was ready. She wasn't always. But seriously - birthdays happen every year. Your baby sister finding out her world is false? So much bigger of an issue and one that I would put my full attention on.

When I was younger, I super identified with Dawn. Now that I'm older, I see both sides of the Dawn hate.
I'm not really sure what the ratios are here. I think it's perfectly find to admit that Dawn can be an annoying teenager. What's frustrating is that most Dawn-haters ignore the fact that (a) she's a teenager and (b) she's a KEY - she's a mystical ball of energy and has no real identity and was created for the sake of an ancient war.

Also, her character arch is truly amazing and one of the most delightful I've ever seen on television. A fact that is largely ignored by Dawn-haters.

The pet names, the adoration and protection he gave Drusilla didn't go to Buffy, who he views as a person, not a thing to be protected (and rightfully so). It went to... Dawn, and later Fred. William after all these years still wants to be somebody's knight, and for a period of time, Dawn let him do that.

What a lovely observation!

[ext_1473268]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining," which...duh, she's 13-14. But the thing they forget is that we don't ever SEE Buffy (or any of the scoobs) when they are this age. I'm absolutely, one-hundred percent certain that Buffy at 13/14, was JUST as bad, if not worse. Heck, in a way, in Welcome to the Hellmouth, she's pretty darn "whiny" at 15 - not that she doesn't have a good reason, but I don't think being the Slayer is any more traumatic than finding out your life is a lie and a big bad wants to kill you and destroy the world with your blood.

[kwritten]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining,"
Interestingly, a lot of Buffy-haters also focus on her "whining" - I actually have a very good friend who LOVES BtVS, but is not actually that fond of Buffy. (I myself have moments where SMG drives me completely up the wall - there's something very visceral about her that I just do NOT like and over the years I've had to train myself to look past the SMG in order to love the Buffy.)

Heck, in a way, in Welcome to the Hellmouth, she's pretty darn "whiny" at 15 - not that she doesn't have a good reason, but I don't think being the Slayer is any more traumatic than finding out your life is a lie and a big bad wants to kill you and destroy the world with your blood.
The symmetry of Buffy/Dawn and their lives changing with the fact of a word - "Slayer" "Key" - has never been lost on me. Or the fact that while Buffy was 15 when she came to Sunnydale - she had been the Slayer for quite a while longer. Which means that they were roughly the same age when their worlds and identities ended.

I'll never understand why Joss & Co. originally wrote Dawn as 9-10 years old. There's no symmetry there - just harsh innocence. Dragging MT on set was a brilliant move by SMG and I'm so glad she did it.

Which is all to say - I've heard that Willow is whiny, Cordelia, Buffy, Tara, Dawn, Joyce... at some point every female character on this series has been hated for a presumed "whininess" to which I say: gtfo. Seriously.

We want our female characters to be SO STRONG that they never "whine" - we wish they had no weaknesses. We don't want to be reminded that the pain, emotional and physical, that we demand our female characters go through in order to prove their strength - but refuse to let them acknowledge that it HURTS. We don't want to be reminded that, the pain that we need them to go through, in order to experience it from our couches without having to go through it ourselves, actually does hurt. In order for a female to be strong she must be so strong that we never have the camera looking back at us saying, "You wanted this to happen to me - you ached for it - you wanted it. You love me because I have been bruised and shattered. This is what it looks like.This is the repercussion of your desire to see me broken." And that's something we just can't live with.

Because at the end of the day, we keep watching. The audience is responsible. We want to see the pain, want to experience second-hand, without being reminded that we want it. I think that's the knee-jerk response to presumed "whininess" - or can be a part of it. How dare you remind me that I enjoyed it when you were broken on a screen for my amusement.

On the other hand, female characters who do NOT respond emotionally to the pain that they go through are hated equally. Because we also need to see the emotional repercussions of our desire to experience pain and hardship - that's the whole point.

It's a double-edged sword.

[upupa_epops]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining," which...duh, she's 13-14.

This is what surprised me the most when I found out that fandom tends to hate Dawn. Because I actually loved her capability to be a little 14yo pain in the ass. I loved how realistic it was, and how funny when it came to those small everyday fights with Buffy.

[red_satin_doll]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining,"

Back in the '80's I read comments in the newpaper or a magazine column from some asshole who said that women would never hold high office in the US (presidency) because we're not as likeable/affable and our voices can be unpleasant to listen to compared to men's. I do not have to tell you what I think about that.

But I do think there is something of that here (and in some people's dislike of Buffy as well.) When people say she's whiny, I think what they are unconsciously saying is that they don't like her voice - or the volume when she raises her voice. (I'm on the receiving end of that a lot at home myself, so I admit bias here.)

but I don't think being the Slayer is any more traumatic than finding out your life is a lie and a big bad wants to kill you and destroy the world with your blood.

IKR?

[sistergrimmel]

I wasn't trying to imply that Blood Ties was somehow unjustified because of it being Buffy's birthday. And yes, that is always a disaster.

I was just curious about that. I haven't conducted polls or anything, so I will absolutely take your word for it on the Dawn hate. I'm not a Dawn hater. I do get why some people find her annoying, but when she's written well, it's BtVS at its best--deeply personal conflicts made worse by supernatural complications. It kept the paranormal relatable, and I loved the hell out of the Season Five finale.