Re: Caroline, I wonder if she's just not able to directly acknowledge why she's so against Elena and Damon, like she has to make it about Elena and Stefan because she doesn't want to delve back into her past trauma. And she especially doesn't want to use her past trauma as a reason for why Elena should be with Stefan -- ignoring how much trauma Elena's experienced at Stefan's hands, of course. Caroline seems stuck in how the brothers treat her -- Stefan helpful and good, Damon abusive and wrong -- and she thinks it's the same for Elena. Probably more than anyone else in Mystic Falls, Caroline has bought into the good-brother-bad-brother mythos because it aligns with her experience, so she universalizes it.
So she's arguing a universal truth because it makes it more applicable to Elena versus basing her judgment on personal experience. Caroline has ~ideas about how the world works. She has plans about where the flowers belong and what's the right way to grieve. There is a single, universal right way to do everything -- which is why Elena is so maddening because she does things the wrong way or doesn't care enough about the right way, but still people ~flock to her.
I... am now having disturbing thoughts about how Caroline might have internalized her father's treatment of her. And how she's perpetuating that controlling behavior, which becomes abusive, with Elena.
a-white-rain compared Caroline to Lexi in a tumblr post and it just clicked. Oh. Right. Blond BFF who dictates the right and wrong ways. Policing tactics. And I remember how Caroline was so encouraging of Elena being sexually free in Season 1 and I think there's something there worth parsing out. Something to do with how ~perfect Caroline seems as a vampire, how maybe that's masking more emotional damage, as well as so much truama (how many times has she been tortured???), which is manifesting in her need to control the social values of her world and the people in it.
Okay, bringing this full circle. So Caroline makes it about Elena because she doesn't want to make it about herself, because making it about herself means confronting the fact that she's still hurt inside, that maybe that perfect smile and can-do attitude is as much a mask as Elena's.
I'm actually really really really in love with you here and what you've said.
It's all things that I've thought about before somewhat for Caroline. Like she is well adjusted and she does love her vampirism and being a human, but she's never been allowed to process the abuse she's been put through. Whether it was at the hands of her father, emotionally and physically, or Damon raping her. She just hasn't. The show doesn't give a shit about showing that.
So I can definitely see her compartmentalizing and walling off that, and then not connecting it to why she doesn't want Elena around Damon. I would love for her to tell Elena that's why. Instead of framing it as a shipping thing.
And I think too that Caroline has constructed herself like Lexi in those black and white roles. Damon is bad. Stefan is good. To her. She doesn't see or doesn't seem to see how bad Stefan has been to Elena. Which baffles me. BAFFLES MY MIND.
But if she is making it about Elena to block dealing with it herself, I get it.
This is actually really great. NOW TO GET THE WRITERS TO DO IT.
Thinking too deeply about this show is so strange because I don't trust the writers so I can't trust what I'm reading into it. SO YAY that you see bits of this too.
The show doesn't give a shit about showing that.
Which makes her not-dealing almost created by the show itself. Like the show doesn't have time for Caro, so she doesn't get to deal, so her not dealing becomes part of her characterization in a way. The show's storytelling flaws manifest in characterization.
I hope they actually give Caroline some attention. She was just SO INTENSE this past episode when it came to Elena and Damon, yet she was playful with Klaus and emotionally ~there for Stefan as he talked about wanting to kill people. So, it seems like there's awareness of Caroline issues? Maybe? But that's not the same as Caroline being aware, of Caroline actually getting to delve into her feelings and explore them on her own terms, even if only FOR A SCENE. Like, do we have to wait for another birthday/funeral for her to be worthy of it?
She doesn't see or doesn't seem to see how bad Stefan has been to Elena. Which baffles me. BAFFLES MY MIND.
I KNOW. It's really heartbreaking, especially when I think about how amazing Caroline was in 4.02 in helping Elena learn some self-control (by means of controlling April? Teaching Elena how to compel the human version of herself, teaching Elena how to make her human self forget trauma. Whoa). Wait. How about that? Caroline explains compulsion as effective only if you believe it too. So that kinda fits for what she's doing now. She's trying to compel Elena to tow the line, only the fiction isn't taking, Elena's not playing her role. How do you believe the compulsion if the compelled won't comply? (Bwah alliteration. Leaving it like that.) So Elena's messing with Caroline's order of the world. And it makes sense how Stefan's right there with her, since his identity construction straddles this dissonance between reality and story which demands an outward reflection of his goodness to reassure him -- again, it's Elena. If she doesn't comply, she messes with Caroline and Stefan's concepts of the world order and their own identities. By asserting control over herself, she's messing with their own self-control since they find self-control outside of themselves. (I mean, all the characters do this to a certain extent. Elena continually mindwiping Jeremy is her creating a healthy/functional Gilbert which she can never hope to be again.)
Yep, very very interesting. I think a lot of the more subtle things you guys have said are probably not fully intentional on the parts of the writers just because, well, I don't trust them right now at all. I do think that Caroline and Stefan have a very similar worldview though, and that came across SO clearly in this episode. They have to label people as "good" or "bad" because if things get too messy, they won't be able to hold onto their own thin veneers of self-control and repression of their darker impulses.
I do think that Caroline and Stefan have a very similar worldview though, and that came across SO clearly in this episode. They have to label people as "good" or "bad" because if things get too messy, they won't be able to hold onto their own thin veneers of self-control and repression of their darker impulses.
Totally yeah.
Okay, I tend to feel conflicted over authorial intent, because on the one hand I love speculating on that intent. But on the other hand, I've written things myself where my subconscious consistently laid out symbolism in a meaningful way that I didn't intend. And like, that doesn't mean it's not there, simply because I didn't intend it.
So like, I think TVD, which relies so heavily on symbolism, and sex-death metaphor, it just manages to align in interesting ways, ways that read to me as pretty consistent.
What even is intent when creating art? Half the joy of writing is letting go of your self-control enough to imagine the characters as alive enough to be beyond you, you know. So there's a lot of unconscious work going on in writing, I think, which screws with intent. But like there's primal connections made there, associations on a basic level, which fit the way TVD works in terms of identity construction (FEAR, GUILT, DEATH).
Sorry, I just went off on a tangent. Authorial intent gets me going. The author isn't dead, he's dreaming and the dreams grown beyond his control and that's why it's a dream worth telling. /pretentious but i don't know how to tone it down i am so sorryyyyy
I'm really enjoying your (and everyone else's) analyses, since it gives me some serious food for thought, not just on the subject of DE, but also on Caroline, who used to be one of my favourite characters pre-2nd part of S3, and who I find I CANNOT stand at the moment. However, I'm not gonna get into the "whys", although I think they're pretty evident- what I'd like to know, what truly and utterly baffles me is why the general consensus on this particular LJ page seems to be that Caroline was RAPED by Damon? Like...what? I genuinely cannot comprehend this, and I hope to God my memory hasn't deteriorated so much that it makes it impossible for me to remember such a HUGE detail. Because for my part, I only remember S1 Caroline as being VERY sexually active (and yes, explainable by her self-confidence issues), which, coupled with her instant attraction to Damon [his whole bad-boy image + competitive angle with regards to Elena], made HER seek HIM out so as to sleep with him.
I'm NOT saying he wasn't pretty much an asshole with the whole blood-sucking, compelling thing and the general demeaning way in which he treated her back then, BUT of rape he was NOT guilty. Damon's pretty much had that same pattern with a lot of the human women he hooked up with- remember Andie? His behaviour to her was a softer version of his behaviour to Caroline [mirroring the changes he was undergoing], but you could still reduce it to: feeding + compelling to not disclose his secret, aside from the sex, which was more than consensual.
I'm sorry if I seem disrespectful or something of the sort, which couldn't be farther from the truth- it's just that as a Damon fan, it hurts me to see profound, intelligent ladies such as yourself accuse him of something I don't think he was capable of even in his darkest times. Moreover, I honestly cannot wrap my mind around the why you should see it that way.
Thanks for reading -if you've made it so far:)-, and I'd be really grateful if anyone could enlighten me!
P.S. One more thing- Caroline's latest bout of Damon hatred -to the point of juvenilely shuddering in disgust at the mere thought of his name/DE, I forget which- is, IMO, another example of character inconsistency. Yes, Damon treated her horribly in S1, but if I recall, they weren't on such bad terms in late S1/S2, for instance. There was teasing/taunting and such, but I don't recall traces of Caroline's hatred of him. Besides, Damon WAS changing- he did try to reconcile Liz with the idea that her daughter was still herself, that vampirism could not change that; she saw him gradually take responsibility by becoming the de facto leader of the Scooby Gang, and worked with him in some cases. And yunno...this is aside from the whole almost-dying-because-he-saved-her-from-Tyler's-bite thing. +Caroline herself was the one nagging Elena about owning up to the fact that she was attracted to Damon, and that it was NORMAL/human for her to feel that way...whereas now she's all like "OMG Elena actually wanting Damon?! She must be sire-bonded to him, IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE"
My point- which I probably lost amongst all these chaotic, jumbled thoughts- is that while not liking him, Caroline's perception of Damon was too suddenly and radically reverted to her early S1 experiences with him. Where did the in-between just vanish?!
what I'd like to know, what truly and utterly baffles me is why the general consensus on this particular LJ page seems to be that Caroline was RAPED by Damon?
Because rape has many different forms and scenarios. The one that's most powerful in popular imagination -- a stranger jumps you in some dark alley -- is actually less than 10% of rapes that happen in real life. Most rape victims were raped by someone they knew, often by someone they had consensual sex with before. Rape, in simple terms, is having sex with someone who didn't agree to have sex. Sometimes the rapist uses physical force to get what they want, but often this is not the case: blackmail, manipulation or taking advantage of the fact that someone is intoxicated are also rape. This is exactly what happens with Damon and Caroline (and Damon/Andie, for the matter of fact). Their first time is consensual, but then Damon vamps out, bites Caroline, and that scares her to death. In the morning, she wants to run away from him, doesn't want to have anything to do with him, so he attacks her again, and then (off-screen) compels her to not be afraid. She didn't want to ever be near to him after he bit her, let alone to have sex with him, but he compelled away her fear, which made her stay. The closest real life equivalent to what Damon did would be slipping someone a date-rape drug.
This isn't character-bashing. I assure you that many people on this page (myself included) like Damon as a character. But TVD is a problematic show, the characters do very questionable thing, and it's a good thing to acknowledge it. So Damon and Katherine (and other characters too, but Damon and Katherine are the most obvious on-screen examples) are rapists, half of the characters murder people without blinking, they torture, they steal, they deceive... This is vampire fiction for you, take it or leave it.
UGH POOR CARE. I completely agree about how the good brother/bad brother dichotomy works for her.
I remember how Caroline was so encouraging of Elena being sexually free in Season 1 and I think there's something there worth parsing out. Something to do with how ~perfect Caroline seems as a vampire, how maybe that's masking more emotional damage, as well as so much truama (how many times has she been tortured???), which is manifesting in her need to control the social values of her world and the people in it.
I don't know that that's a shift, though? I think her worldview might just have a healthy perspective on sexuality (there's no bad there!) even if it lacks a healthy perspective on relationships.
I was more thinking about the shift in how Caroline encouraged Elena to explore the ~unknown, to experience life. The shift for me comes from how Caroline seems more rigid in how she sees Stefan and Damon. I guess both then and now, Caroline was assuming that Stefan was a good unknown then and a good known now?
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. More that the shift seems more about encouraging Elena (S1) to judging and controlling her.
Right, the narrative comforts her. Which is funny because I'm remembering -- wasn't she angry at her mother for pretending in s1? I'm forgetting the context, but wasn't it something to do with her marriage being a lie. So Caroline only likes narratives that are convincing. It's very upsetting to have her good narratives weakened.
So she's arguing a universal truth because it makes it more applicable to Elena versus basing her judgment on personal experience. Caroline has ~ideas about how the world works. She has plans about where the flowers belong and what's the right way to grieve. There is a single, universal right way to do everything -- which is why Elena is so maddening because she does things the wrong way or doesn't care enough about the right way, but still people ~flock to her.
I... am now having disturbing thoughts about how Caroline might have internalized her father's treatment of her. And how she's perpetuating that controlling behavior, which becomes abusive, with Elena.
a-white-rain compared Caroline to Lexi in a tumblr post and it just clicked. Oh. Right. Blond BFF who dictates the right and wrong ways. Policing tactics. And I remember how Caroline was so encouraging of Elena being sexually free in Season 1 and I think there's something there worth parsing out. Something to do with how ~perfect Caroline seems as a vampire, how maybe that's masking more emotional damage, as well as so much truama (how many times has she been tortured???), which is manifesting in her need to control the social values of her world and the people in it.
Okay, bringing this full circle. So Caroline makes it about Elena because she doesn't want to make it about herself, because making it about herself means confronting the fact that she's still hurt inside, that maybe that perfect smile and can-do attitude is as much a mask as Elena's.
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It's all things that I've thought about before somewhat for Caroline. Like she is well adjusted and she does love her vampirism and being a human, but she's never been allowed to process the abuse she's been put through. Whether it was at the hands of her father, emotionally and physically, or Damon raping her. She just hasn't. The show doesn't give a shit about showing that.
So I can definitely see her compartmentalizing and walling off that, and then not connecting it to why she doesn't want Elena around Damon. I would love for her to tell Elena that's why. Instead of framing it as a shipping thing.
And I think too that Caroline has constructed herself like Lexi in those black and white roles. Damon is bad. Stefan is good. To her. She doesn't see or doesn't seem to see how bad Stefan has been to Elena. Which baffles me. BAFFLES MY MIND.
But if she is making it about Elena to block dealing with it herself, I get it.
This is actually really great. NOW TO GET THE WRITERS TO DO IT.
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The show doesn't give a shit about showing that.
Which makes her not-dealing almost created by the show itself. Like the show doesn't have time for Caro, so she doesn't get to deal, so her not dealing becomes part of her characterization in a way. The show's storytelling flaws manifest in characterization.
I hope they actually give Caroline some attention. She was just SO INTENSE this past episode when it came to Elena and Damon, yet she was playful with Klaus and emotionally ~there for Stefan as he talked about wanting to kill people. So, it seems like there's awareness of Caroline issues? Maybe? But that's not the same as Caroline being aware, of Caroline actually getting to delve into her feelings and explore them on her own terms, even if only FOR A SCENE. Like, do we have to wait for another birthday/funeral for her to be worthy of it?
She doesn't see or doesn't seem to see how bad Stefan has been to Elena. Which baffles me. BAFFLES MY MIND.
I KNOW. It's really heartbreaking, especially when I think about how amazing Caroline was in 4.02 in helping Elena learn some self-control (by means of controlling April? Teaching Elena how to compel the human version of herself, teaching Elena how to make her human self forget trauma. Whoa). Wait. How about that? Caroline explains compulsion as effective only if you believe it too. So that kinda fits for what she's doing now. She's trying to compel Elena to tow the line, only the fiction isn't taking, Elena's not playing her role. How do you believe the compulsion if the compelled won't comply? (Bwah alliteration. Leaving it like that.) So Elena's messing with Caroline's order of the world. And it makes sense how Stefan's right there with her, since his identity construction straddles this dissonance between reality and story which demands an outward reflection of his goodness to reassure him -- again, it's Elena. If she doesn't comply, she messes with Caroline and Stefan's concepts of the world order and their own identities. By asserting control over herself, she's messing with their own self-control since they find self-control outside of themselves. (I mean, all the characters do this to a certain extent. Elena continually mindwiping Jeremy is her creating a healthy/functional Gilbert which she can never hope to be again.)
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I think a lot of the more subtle things you guys have said are probably not fully intentional on the parts of the writers just because, well, I don't trust them right now at all.
I do think that Caroline and Stefan have a very similar worldview though, and that came across SO clearly in this episode. They have to label people as "good" or "bad" because if things get too messy, they won't be able to hold onto their own thin veneers of self-control and repression of their darker impulses.
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Totally yeah.
Okay, I tend to feel conflicted over authorial intent, because on the one hand I love speculating on that intent. But on the other hand, I've written things myself where my subconscious consistently laid out symbolism in a meaningful way that I didn't intend. And like, that doesn't mean it's not there, simply because I didn't intend it.
So like, I think TVD, which relies so heavily on symbolism, and sex-death metaphor, it just manages to align in interesting ways, ways that read to me as pretty consistent.
What even is intent when creating art? Half the joy of writing is letting go of your self-control enough to imagine the characters as alive enough to be beyond you, you know. So there's a lot of unconscious work going on in writing, I think, which screws with intent. But like there's primal connections made there, associations on a basic level, which fit the way TVD works in terms of identity construction (FEAR, GUILT, DEATH).
Sorry, I just went off on a tangent. Authorial intent gets me going. The author isn't dead, he's dreaming and the dreams grown beyond his control and that's why it's a dream worth telling. /pretentious but i don't know how to tone it down i am so sorryyyyy
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I'm really enjoying your (and everyone else's) analyses, since it gives me some serious food for thought, not just on the subject of DE, but also on Caroline, who used to be one of my favourite characters pre-2nd part of S3, and who I find I CANNOT stand at the moment. However, I'm not gonna get into the "whys", although I think they're pretty evident- what I'd like to know, what truly and utterly baffles me is why the general consensus on this particular LJ page seems to be that Caroline was RAPED by Damon? Like...what? I genuinely cannot comprehend this, and I hope to God my memory hasn't deteriorated so much that it makes it impossible for me to remember such a HUGE detail. Because for my part, I only remember S1 Caroline as being VERY sexually active (and yes, explainable by her self-confidence issues), which, coupled with her instant attraction to Damon [his whole bad-boy image + competitive angle with regards to Elena], made HER seek HIM out so as to sleep with him.
I'm NOT saying he wasn't pretty much an asshole with the whole blood-sucking, compelling thing and the general demeaning way in which he treated her back then, BUT of rape he was NOT guilty. Damon's pretty much had that same pattern with a lot of the human women he hooked up with- remember Andie? His behaviour to her was a softer version of his behaviour to Caroline [mirroring the changes he was undergoing], but you could still reduce it to: feeding + compelling to not disclose his secret, aside from the sex, which was more than consensual.
I'm sorry if I seem disrespectful or something of the sort, which couldn't be farther from the truth- it's just that as a Damon fan, it hurts me to see profound, intelligent ladies such as yourself accuse him of something I don't think he was capable of even in his darkest times. Moreover, I honestly cannot wrap my mind around the why you should see it that way.
Thanks for reading -if you've made it so far:)-, and I'd be really grateful if anyone could enlighten me!
P.S. One more thing- Caroline's latest bout of Damon hatred -to the point of juvenilely shuddering in disgust at the mere thought of his name/DE, I forget which- is, IMO, another example of character inconsistency. Yes, Damon treated her horribly in S1, but if I recall, they weren't on such bad terms in late S1/S2, for instance. There was teasing/taunting and such, but I don't recall traces of Caroline's hatred of him. Besides, Damon WAS changing- he did try to reconcile Liz with the idea that her daughter was still herself, that vampirism could not change that; she saw him gradually take responsibility by becoming the de facto leader of the Scooby Gang, and worked with him in some cases. And yunno...this is aside from the whole almost-dying-because-he-saved-her-from-Tyler's-bite thing. +Caroline herself was the one nagging Elena about owning up to the fact that she was attracted to Damon, and that it was NORMAL/human for her to feel that way...whereas now she's all like "OMG Elena actually wanting Damon?! She must be sire-bonded to him, IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE"
My point- which I probably lost amongst all these chaotic, jumbled thoughts- is that while not liking him, Caroline's perception of Damon was too suddenly and radically reverted to her early S1 experiences with him. Where did the in-between just vanish?!
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what I'd like to know, what truly and utterly baffles me is why the general consensus on this particular LJ page seems to be that Caroline was RAPED by Damon?
Because rape has many different forms and scenarios. The one that's most powerful in popular imagination -- a stranger jumps you in some dark alley -- is actually less than 10% of rapes that happen in real life. Most rape victims were raped by someone they knew, often by someone they had consensual sex with before. Rape, in simple terms, is having sex with someone who didn't agree to have sex. Sometimes the rapist uses physical force to get what they want, but often this is not the case: blackmail, manipulation or taking advantage of the fact that someone is intoxicated are also rape. This is exactly what happens with Damon and Caroline (and Damon/Andie, for the matter of fact). Their first time is consensual, but then Damon vamps out, bites Caroline, and that scares her to death. In the morning, she wants to run away from him, doesn't want to have anything to do with him, so he attacks her again, and then (off-screen) compels her to not be afraid. She didn't want to ever be near to him after he bit her, let alone to have sex with him, but he compelled away her fear, which made her stay. The closest real life equivalent to what Damon did would be slipping someone a date-rape drug.
This isn't character-bashing. I assure you that many people on this page (myself included) like Damon as a character. But TVD is a problematic show, the characters do very questionable thing, and it's a good thing to acknowledge it. So Damon and Katherine (and other characters too, but Damon and Katherine are the most obvious on-screen examples) are rapists, half of the characters murder people without blinking, they torture, they steal, they deceive... This is vampire fiction for you, take it or leave it.
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I remember how Caroline was so encouraging of Elena being sexually free in Season 1 and I think there's something there worth parsing out. Something to do with how ~perfect Caroline seems as a vampire, how maybe that's masking more emotional damage, as well as so much truama (how many times has she been tortured???), which is manifesting in her need to control the social values of her world and the people in it.
I don't know that that's a shift, though? I think her worldview might just have a healthy perspective on sexuality (there's no bad there!) even if it lacks a healthy perspective on relationships.
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I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. More that the shift seems more about encouraging Elena (S1) to judging and controlling her.
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