Deep breath....relax! First, Julie Plec informed us that whole siring and hybrid storyline was set up because of this and that not everything is as it seems. Witch is to say, I love it because I expect Elena to fight for her agency. And I say that with all of my delena shippers heart. I don't expect to her to fight Damon but to fight Stefan and Caroline when they try to convince her that her agency is compromised. That's why we have loop wholes....Elena will be screaming with all her might that she made her choices and because some people don't like her choices that doesn't make them less valid. I see it as a way for Elena to retrieve the right to want and act on her wishes. Caroline and Stefan are screaming Elena is different because she has stopped being concerned with what THEY want and started focusing on what she wants. Love the Jeremy storyline and family feels that surround Damon, Elena and him when they are together or talking about each other. And I like Matt more and more and I think he will be the voice of reason in this siring story line because he will point out that sire bond doesn't cause romantic feelings and that Elena was very much in love with Damon when she was human and that everything Elena is doing is perfectly in character=her character before her depression!!! And I see Bonnie eventually backing him up. So relax....it's all good unless you are Stefan. :D
No, it's not good. Not because I believe that the bond is real or is the source of Elena's feelings for Damon, but because the framing in this episode was disgusting. Because marketing choices were prioritized over writing sources, because the way the show used rape allusions was gross. Regardless of what happens later on the show (and don't get me wrong, I think that your scenario is actually very likely), this episode did some disgusting things which won't be fixed by further development, because the techniques 4x07 used are offensive in every context.
Okay, about rape allusions I agree wholeheartedly! It angered me actually too. It bothers me when people in fandom play with that word only, it bothered me more to see it on the show. I kinda decided to let it go because I let go of the notion show presented that if person wants to die you have to let them. It bothers me equally that show basically condoned suicide and uses rape allusions. But I don't like being hypocritical so if I let the suicide thing go I have to let the rape allusions go and hope that in the end at least it will be addressed in interviews and panels with producers.
because the way the show used rape allusions was gross
I dunno. I feel like what I'm about to say will be incredibly controversial and probably wrong, but... this season has been all about Elena breaking free of the shame of the Good Girl position (as you say far more eloquently than I ever could, of course). And so there's something about the framing where she goes to Damon, of her own will imo, and the rest of the world tries to frame it as her ~losing her agency -- because they need a means to control her, to fix her, because shaming tactics didn't work, she failed to fall in line. I think the sire bond is being played as a literal possibility simply because the characters believe it might be true, are desperate to believe it, but it's going to be called out as bullshit to make a point.
I just. Stefan was so Ripper last night. And Caroline was really blinded by her own personal feelings towards Damon and her idea of what's right for Elena. It seems so obviously about them shaming her.
And if you approach this from the POV that Stefan and Caroline are being really shitty (which I think is a reason in itself to be mad), it's showing how shaming women and saying they're not allowed to make their own choices, robs them of agency, and consequently makes ALL THEIR CHOICES look like they're being horribly taken advantage of.
Treating Elena this way, their desperate grasping for a theory which strips her of her free will in order to rationalize why she's ~wrong -- their actions are what brings questionable consent into the story. They're the ones who strip her of her agency. They're grossness taints the scene.
And I just feel like... maybe that's the point? Because this season is about Elena coming to terms with her desire. And doesn't it make sense, from a narrative standpoint, that finally when Elena stops self-shaming, that the world has to EXTRA SHAME her for her actions.
So. This is really risky. And I'm not sure I should be giving TVD this much credit, because they've certainly screwed up in so many ways. But... I feel like the show is still on Elena's side. And I think it's making a statement about the way we treat women in portraying how others are desperate to make Elena be ~right again.
I just find it really interesting. Where I'm willing to see where it goes.
And then I come back to this idea about how TVD has always been very directly interested in exploring sex, including problematic sexual attitudes. And well, dubious consent is a part of that. And the way people create false narratives of dubious consent is also a part of that.
Well, and, to be fair, if anyone can criticize Damon w/r/t his sexual decisions, it's Caroline. Remember that whole Season 1 storyline where he essentially raped her, manipulated her, erased her memories in a gross coercive fashion, fed from her, isolated her from her family and friends, etc. etc.? No, and the show doesn't seem to want us to either, because they ret-conned Damon into being a "bad boy with a heart of gold," after his highly questionable Season 1 introduction. So, if Caroline wants to say to Elena, "I find it unacceptable that you would even consider dating the guy who used me, your best friend, as a human blood bag and sex object, with very dubious consent, for months," I applaud her for that. But for some reason, the show wouldn't quite let her do that, so it just seemed like Caroline was being controlling for no real reason, and also a hypocrite, because she was complaining to and flirting with Klaus of all people, who has killed Elena's family members and technically even killed Elena herself (although the show's mythology on that is vague). UGH. Caroline and Elena are probably my two favorite characters and I HATE what this is doing to them. Honestly, I would LOVE to think that this is a clever criticism of slut-shaming, and your thoughts on that are super interesting, but...I don't know if it is. Maybe I'm cynical, but I do think it looks an awful lot like stringing both Stelena and Delena shippers along for as long as possible. Not ok.
Right right, I'm with you on Caroline's legit perspective, plus maybe some thoughts (posted here) on why it makes sense that she's not directly confronting Elena on that front regarding her being raped and abused by Damon.
You've also just made a light bulb go off in my head about Caroline's perspective in that Caroline's framing it as Elena must be compelled just like she was -- why else would Elena choose Damon? Whoa yeah. Another level of Caroline seeing Elena-Damon through her past trauma.
I hate how Caroline and Elena are facing this conflict, but I'm also a bit fascinated by it. Maybe Caroline being in conflict with Elena will bring out more development for her.
Maybe I'm cynical, but I do think it looks an awful lot like stringing both Stelena and Delena shippers along for as long as possible. Not ok.
Right I'm sure it is a lot about shipper and triangle baiting. But can't it also be about more than that? Like, I do love TVD for the cheap thrills, but I think there's a fairly consistent interest in exploring trauma, even to the extent that when it seems like it's being ignored, it's actually being buried only to rise up a season later. And this season has been so ~aware of portraying the impossibility of Elena's situation, the shaming standards she puts upon herself, so it just seems too perfect for the outward forces to double down when she's finally accepting herself: "this is who i am now." That seems to be the central struggle of the season -- controlling who Elena becomes -- hell it's the central struggle of the series, isn't it? And so for that scene to exist, it just seems to fit in with the theme of displacing Elena's self-determination, once again denying her agency because she's decided she has it in a very ~selfish and ~unsafe way.
Very interesting about the must-be-compelled thing. I do love how this show explores issues of consent and trauma related to the mythology in ways the vampire shows/movies (cough twilight) often completely ignore. I guess it's hard to expect it to do that totally perfectly all the time.
But for some reason, the show wouldn't quite let her do that, so it just seemed like Caroline was being controlling for no real reason, and also a hypocrite, because she was complaining to and flirting with Klaus of all people, who has killed Elena's family members and technically even killed Elena herself (although the show's mythology on that is vague). UGH. Caroline and Elena are probably my two favorite characters and I HATE what this is doing to them. Honestly, I would LOVE to think that this is a clever criticism of slut-shaming, and your thoughts on that are super interesting, but...I don't know if it is. Maybe I'm cynical, but I do think it looks an awful lot like stringing both Stelena and Delena shippers along for as long as possible. Not ok.
MTE. That's exactly my problem; that I know this is the most logical interpretation for Caroline's character, and I love her so I'd definitely take that over the "omg that hypocritical bitch", and I'd love to think it's an exploration of Caroline's issues, but I really...don't? I mean I think all they're trying to do is keep both ships alive as well, so all of Caroline's trauma basically converts to stanning-Stefan in a way that makes it seem that she's stanning him for no reason at all, and is being a terrible friend by pushing Elena towards him, because Stefan can be an awfully manipulative bastard as well. And all this is done without any CAROLINE in the narrative; she doesn't have a voice or POV, she's just framing the S/E/D story, ugh.
We really REALLY need a Caroline episode. It's gotta be coming soon. Actually, it might be explored through Caroline/Klaus? Like, Caroline/Klaus as a mirror to Rebekah/Klaus -- all about undercovering the romance draped over abuse, you know. And hopefully that leads somewhere interesting for Caroline.
But TVD really sucks at ensemble storytelling. BtVS spoiled me.
Oh no, I agree, what Stefan and Caroline with respect to Elena, it's very different. I really like your Caroline analysis, btw, about how it was a fix for Caroline, but it's not for Elena. I think Caroline has internalized a lot of damaging standards -- which leads to her policing Elena on her love life.
I'm rewatching this ep right now, and the conversation where Stefan and Caroline talk about the cure is so bizarre to me because of how they continue to ignore the Klaus-blood-bag threat. The cure really isn't a fix, yet they're all clinging to this idea of it for Elena. When in reality, it's more of a fix for any of them because they're not in danger of becoming a Klaus blood bag.
Another thing that bugs me is how they're not giving Elena time to even find her footing. Caroline wasn't immediately good at being a vampire. It took time.
Yeah, so true about the timing thing. I think that's a consistent theme with new vamps on the show, and an intentional criticism (I think?) of those like Stefan who, even after 150+ years don't have it together yet but expect others to be perfectly fine and in control within days.
Love the Jeremy storyline and family feels that surround Damon, Elena and him when they are together or talking about each other. And I like Matt more and more and I think he will be the voice of reason in this siring story line because he will point out that sire bond doesn't cause romantic feelings and that Elena was very much in love with Damon when she was human and that everything Elena is doing is perfectly in character=her character before her depression!!! And I see Bonnie eventually backing him up.
So relax....it's all good unless you are Stefan. :D
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I dunno. I feel like what I'm about to say will be incredibly controversial and probably wrong, but... this season has been all about Elena breaking free of the shame of the Good Girl position (as you say far more eloquently than I ever could, of course). And so there's something about the framing where she goes to Damon, of her own will imo, and the rest of the world tries to frame it as her ~losing her agency -- because they need a means to control her, to fix her, because shaming tactics didn't work, she failed to fall in line. I think the sire bond is being played as a literal possibility simply because the characters believe it might be true, are desperate to believe it, but it's going to be called out as bullshit to make a point.
I just. Stefan was so Ripper last night. And Caroline was really blinded by her own personal feelings towards Damon and her idea of what's right for Elena. It seems so obviously about them shaming her.
And if you approach this from the POV that Stefan and Caroline are being really shitty (which I think is a reason in itself to be mad), it's showing how shaming women and saying they're not allowed to make their own choices, robs them of agency, and consequently makes ALL THEIR CHOICES look like they're being horribly taken advantage of.
Treating Elena this way, their desperate grasping for a theory which strips her of her free will in order to rationalize why she's ~wrong -- their actions are what brings questionable consent into the story. They're the ones who strip her of her agency. They're grossness taints the scene.
And I just feel like... maybe that's the point? Because this season is about Elena coming to terms with her desire. And doesn't it make sense, from a narrative standpoint, that finally when Elena stops self-shaming, that the world has to EXTRA SHAME her for her actions.
So. This is really risky. And I'm not sure I should be giving TVD this much credit, because they've certainly screwed up in so many ways. But... I feel like the show is still on Elena's side. And I think it's making a statement about the way we treat women in portraying how others are desperate to make Elena be ~right again.
I just find it really interesting. Where I'm willing to see where it goes.
And then I come back to this idea about how TVD has always been very directly interested in exploring sex, including problematic sexual attitudes. And well, dubious consent is a part of that. And the way people create false narratives of dubious consent is also a part of that.
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Honestly, I would LOVE to think that this is a clever criticism of slut-shaming, and your thoughts on that are super interesting, but...I don't know if it is. Maybe I'm cynical, but I do think it looks an awful lot like stringing both Stelena and Delena shippers along for as long as possible. Not ok.
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You've also just made a light bulb go off in my head about Caroline's perspective in that Caroline's framing it as Elena must be compelled just like she was -- why else would Elena choose Damon? Whoa yeah. Another level of Caroline seeing Elena-Damon through her past trauma.
I hate how Caroline and Elena are facing this conflict, but I'm also a bit fascinated by it. Maybe Caroline being in conflict with Elena will bring out more development for her.
Maybe I'm cynical, but I do think it looks an awful lot like stringing both Stelena and Delena shippers along for as long as possible. Not ok.
Right I'm sure it is a lot about shipper and triangle baiting. But can't it also be about more than that? Like, I do love TVD for the cheap thrills, but I think there's a fairly consistent interest in exploring trauma, even to the extent that when it seems like it's being ignored, it's actually being buried only to rise up a season later. And this season has been so ~aware of portraying the impossibility of Elena's situation, the shaming standards she puts upon herself, so it just seems too perfect for the outward forces to double down when she's finally accepting herself: "this is who i am now." That seems to be the central struggle of the season -- controlling who Elena becomes -- hell it's the central struggle of the series, isn't it? And so for that scene to exist, it just seems to fit in with the theme of displacing Elena's self-determination, once again denying her agency because she's decided she has it in a very ~selfish and ~unsafe way.
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I do love how this show explores issues of consent and trauma related to the mythology in ways the vampire shows/movies (cough twilight) often completely ignore. I guess it's hard to expect it to do that totally perfectly all the time.
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Honestly, I would LOVE to think that this is a clever criticism of slut-shaming, and your thoughts on that are super interesting, but...I don't know if it is. Maybe I'm cynical, but I do think it looks an awful lot like stringing both Stelena and Delena shippers along for as long as possible. Not ok.
MTE. That's exactly my problem; that I know this is the most logical interpretation for Caroline's character, and I love her so I'd definitely take that over the "omg that hypocritical bitch", and I'd love to think it's an exploration of Caroline's issues, but I really...don't? I mean I think all they're trying to do is keep both ships alive as well, so all of Caroline's trauma basically converts to stanning-Stefan in a way that makes it seem that she's stanning him for no reason at all, and is being a terrible friend by pushing Elena towards him, because Stefan can be an awfully manipulative bastard as well. And all this is done without any CAROLINE in the narrative; she doesn't have a voice or POV, she's just framing the S/E/D story, ugh.
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But TVD really sucks at ensemble storytelling. BtVS spoiled me.
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I'm rewatching this ep right now, and the conversation where Stefan and Caroline talk about the cure is so bizarre to me because of how they continue to ignore the Klaus-blood-bag threat. The cure really isn't a fix, yet they're all clinging to this idea of it for Elena. When in reality, it's more of a fix for any of them because they're not in danger of becoming a Klaus blood bag.
Another thing that bugs me is how they're not giving Elena time to even find her footing. Caroline wasn't immediately good at being a vampire. It took time.
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