1. I feel like this episode may turn out to be further evidence of how this show irrevocably broke me already so I now can barely summon the energy to be angry about things? Or else, I'm just really convinced that it's trolling (badly, as you say, because it means undermining Elena's agency in ways that make.no.sense.because.she.didn't.wake.up.yesterday.and.feel.things.for.damon.for.fuck's.sake.caroline.and.stefan
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1. Oh, I fully agree that it looks like trolling. I'm just so utterly disgusted by the way in which it was introduced. I actually don't want to go into speculations whether or not the bond is real, because I feel manipulated by the writers. Not played with as a reader/viewer, but manipulated in a very ugly way. They're using bad writing to manipulate me into going into speculations and a shipwar. I refuse.
5. I'm troubled by the seeming lack of agency this hunter identity imposes on him while simultaneously allowing him to break free of things like compulsion, and this kid has been compelled so often he should be a vegetable by now. So I don't know. But I like where it's going.
Same. This can be so very interesting! And Shane can be very interesting. Those parts were good.
Deep breath....relax! First, Julie Plec informed us that whole siring and hybrid storyline was set up because of this and that not everything is as it seems. Witch is to say, I love it because I expect Elena to fight for her agency. And I say that with all of my delena shippers heart. I don't expect to her to fight Damon but to fight Stefan and Caroline when they try to convince her that her agency is compromised. That's why we have loop wholes....Elena will be screaming with all her might that she made her choices and because some people don't like her choices that doesn't make them less valid. I see it as a way for Elena to retrieve the right to want and act on her wishes. Caroline and Stefan are screaming Elena is different because she has stopped being concerned with what THEY want and started focusing on what she wants
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No, it's not good. Not because I believe that the bond is real or is the source of Elena's feelings for Damon, but because the framing in this episode was disgusting. Because marketing choices were prioritized over writing sources, because the way the show used rape allusions was gross. Regardless of what happens later on the show (and don't get me wrong, I think that your scenario is actually very likely), this episode did some disgusting things which won't be fixed by further development, because the techniques 4x07 used are offensive in every context.
Okay, about rape allusions I agree wholeheartedly! It angered me actually too. It bothers me when people in fandom play with that word only, it bothered me more to see it on the show. I kinda decided to let it go because I let go of the notion show presented that if person wants to die you have to let them. It bothers me equally that show basically condoned suicide and uses rape allusions. But I don't like being hypocritical so if I let the suicide thing go I have to let the rape allusions go and hope that in the end at least it will be addressed in interviews and panels with producers.
because the way the show used rape allusions was grossI dunno. I feel like what I'm about to say will be incredibly controversial and probably wrong, but... this season has been all about Elena breaking free of the shame of the Good Girl position (as you say far more eloquently than I ever could, of course). And so there's something about the framing where she goes to Damon, of her own will imo, and the rest of the world tries to frame it as her ~losing her agency -- because they need a means to control her, to fix her, because shaming tactics didn't work, she failed to fall in line. I think the sire bond is being played as a literal possibility simply because the characters believe it might be true, are desperate to believe it, but it's going to be called out as bullshit to make a point
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1. I'm legit furious. WHO thought this was a good idea?
2. You're right, the sire bond thing in relation to hybrids is fascinating. Something I'd really love to see explored. Tyler's relationship with freedom is an issue that should be explored further.
3. Even in the worst case scenario, Damon couldn't have known. It's just not possible.
6. Really? I felt like she was actually more worshipful of Stefan, with the exclamations about epic love etc. What I wanted was Caroline talking about how Damon was awful to her. That, I would totally get behind. Caroline as a mouthpiece? NO!
2. Tyler/Freedom I will ship it. Hopefully they will explore it.
3. Hopefully you're right, the promo does look ominous though.
6. I suppose I just think it makes sense that she's anti-Damon given her history with him and yes they do need to let her talk instead of using her as a mouthpiece. I think the epic love thing is just as much about Elena for Caroline though so it could also in a way be Elena worship. I think some level of worshipfulness actually makes sense for her character after coming through all her insecurities etc, but the levels in some of the previous episodes were really too much. :)
3. The promo is 100% not talking about Elena - it is talking about 1940s flashback-girl. This does not make Damon *good*, but Elena and sirebonds hasn't crossed his mind up to this point. Nor Stefan's until Caroline started riffing.
1. I was so very angry. I think I composed a very long rant while trying to fall asleep. This is more of painting Damon as the bad guy. When in recent memory has Damon been a bad guy? Yes, his approach to problem solving is a little more murderous than anyone else, but it's not like they let him. Stefan on the other hand? Plus the denial of Elena's ability to choose and want things for herself? To protect her brother by killing the Hunter?
1. I can't believe I'm saying this, but this villainization of Damon is unacceptable. Because it has very, very ugly undertones of shifting the blame, making Damon responsible for Elena's transgressions. Like he was ~corrupting her in one way or another. So much rage.
Who/what is responsible for Elena's actions: Elena. Who/what isn't responsible for Elena's action: Damon's satanic dick.
Elena has always done what she wants. She wants to give herself to Klaus-she manipulates Rose. She has a long history of not making good decisions. Personally, I'm fine with her sleeping with Damon, but I can understand why some other characters may be less fine with that. However, it's really sick to me that Damon is going to get the blame for all of this. I don't understand this constant framing of Damon as the bad guy. I must be missing all the people he's still killing.
It's sad that what I saw as Elena character development turns out to have the potential to be Elena being manipulated. And although I don't really trust JP or what she says in interviews (where she's implying it's true) if this turns out to be false, the fact of the matter Damon and Elena's first time is always going to be framed as her potentially being raped.
The framing of the final scene was gross. Like way to take Elena's sexual appetite and choosing to have sex with the guy she likes and frame it as rape, which there are people now saying it's rape. Like I literally cannot with how gross that framing decision is.
Also cannot with how gross it is to make Caroline a consistent mouth piece for shipping. Her saying she doesn't want Elena to be with Damon should come from a place of um this guy was abusive to me, not from a place of STEFAN IS YOUR EPIC LOVE. When all Stefan did this episode was prove that he doesn't: a) know Elena at all (because what the fuck would you ever think it's okay to do that her brother for and expect she'd be down for it) and b) doesn't want her like this. And I loved that she threw it back in his face, but I was hoping she would break his bones.
I have theories on how the sire bond isn't what it is, specifically given that we've had Elena say no and refuse to do what Damon tells her to several times. So yeah.
Like way to take Elena's sexual appetite and choosing to have sex with the guy she likes and frame it as rape, which there are people now saying it's rape.
But also HOW can it be read as rape? Even when the sire bond is real, Damon doesn't know about it. You can't rape someone if you're not aware that they're not able to consent. It's like "rape without a rapist", and reading Damon as an abuser REALLY bothers me in this scene. I don't really want to discuss it in detail here, but I can PM you if you want to carry on with this topic?
Her saying she doesn't want Elena to be with Damon should come from a place of um this guy was abusive to me, not from a place of STEFAN IS YOUR EPIC LOVE.Preach. I fully understand why Caroline doesn't want Elena anywhere near Damon. I like that Caroline doesn't want Elena anywhere near Damon. But they way it's written IS JUST DISGUSTING
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Re: Caroline, I wonder if she's just not able to directly acknowledge why she's so against Elena and Damon, like she has to make it about Elena and Stefan because she doesn't want to delve back into her past trauma. And she especially doesn't want to use her past trauma as a reason for why Elena should be with Stefan -- ignoring how much trauma Elena's experienced at Stefan's hands, of course. Caroline seems stuck in how the brothers treat her -- Stefan helpful and good, Damon abusive and wrong -- and she thinks it's the same for Elena. Probably more than anyone else in Mystic Falls, Caroline has bought into the good-brother-bad-brother mythos because it aligns with her experience, so she universalizes it
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5. I'm troubled by the seeming lack of agency this hunter identity imposes on him while simultaneously allowing him to break free of things like compulsion, and this kid has been compelled so often he should be a vegetable by now. So I don't know. But I like where it's going.
Same. This can be so very interesting! And Shane can be very interesting. Those parts were good.
7. Bless. Let's just go write porn...
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2. You're right, the sire bond thing in relation to hybrids is fascinating. Something I'd really love to see explored. Tyler's relationship with freedom is an issue that should be explored further.
3. Even in the worst case scenario, Damon couldn't have known. It's just not possible.
6. Really? I felt like she was actually more worshipful of Stefan, with the exclamations about epic love etc. What I wanted was Caroline talking about how Damon was awful to her. That, I would totally get behind. Caroline as a mouthpiece? NO!
7. Cheers :).
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2. Tyler/Freedom I will ship it. Hopefully they will explore it.
3. Hopefully you're right, the promo does look ominous though.
6. I suppose I just think it makes sense that she's anti-Damon given her history with him and yes they do need to let her talk instead of using her as a mouthpiece. I think the epic love thing is just as much about Elena for Caroline though so it could also in a way be Elena worship. I think some level of worshipfulness actually makes sense for her character after coming through all her insecurities etc, but the levels in some of the previous episodes were really too much. :)
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I just can't with this.
4. Such good chemistry those two have.
5. Jeremy and Elena are always wonderful.
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Who/what is responsible for Elena's actions: Elena.
Who/what isn't responsible for Elena's action: Damon's satanic dick.
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It's sad that what I saw as Elena character development turns out to have the potential to be Elena being manipulated. And although I don't really trust JP or what she says in interviews (where she's implying it's true) if this turns out to be false, the fact of the matter Damon and Elena's first time is always going to be framed as her potentially being raped.
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Also cannot with how gross it is to make Caroline a consistent mouth piece for shipping. Her saying she doesn't want Elena to be with Damon should come from a place of um this guy was abusive to me, not from a place of STEFAN IS YOUR EPIC LOVE. When all Stefan did this episode was prove that he doesn't: a) know Elena at all (because what the fuck would you ever think it's okay to do that her brother for and expect she'd be down for it) and b) doesn't want her like this. And I loved that she threw it back in his face, but I was hoping she would break his bones.
I have theories on how the sire bond isn't what it is, specifically given that we've had Elena say no and refuse to do what Damon tells her to several times. So yeah.
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But also HOW can it be read as rape? Even when the sire bond is real, Damon doesn't know about it. You can't rape someone if you're not aware that they're not able to consent. It's like "rape without a rapist", and reading Damon as an abuser REALLY bothers me in this scene. I don't really want to discuss it in detail here, but I can PM you if you want to carry on with this topic?
Her saying she doesn't want Elena to be with Damon should come from a place of um this guy was abusive to me, not from a place of STEFAN IS YOUR EPIC LOVE.Preach. I fully understand why Caroline doesn't want Elena anywhere near Damon. I like that Caroline doesn't want Elena anywhere near Damon. But they way it's written IS JUST DISGUSTING ( ... )
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