Do I do what I want to do? Or do I do what I should do?

[upupa_epops]

Ok, so I'm still processing the finale, and I have thoughts. Actually, I have too many thoughts, so I decided to break them into three separate posts. This is the first one, the other two (maybe I'll be able to combine them in one?) will appear some time this week.

Warnings: I overanalyse teen vampire shows. In order to make it more bearable, I

Comments

[vergoldung]

I want all your thoughts, always. I think the whole problematic you develop is extremely interesting. And I absolutely agree about the show refusing to draw out clear patterns of right and wrong. What fascinates me is how the show itself keeps reminding us, how everything is only a question of point of view (or is it?). Jeremy's compulsion is a great example of that, because of the various opinion the show provides through the different characters (except for Jeremy, alas). Things aren't judged for themselves (and when they are, it's usually Bonnie who carries the unpopular judgment), but within context. Which is both a good thing and a bad thing. Perspective can change everything. I'd say the Andy-affair is one of those cases where perspective is everything. But is it? Because in the end, rape and suppression of free will could never be a good thing, right? Is there a different degree of wrongness between Andie's and Jeremy's compulsion? Does the show's judgment, the characters' judgment and the viewer's opinion depend on the act, on consequences that would result, or on the drive to act in the first place? I think Stefan leaving Elena to die is absolutely genius because there are so many different opinion that will result from this choice.

See I'm already full of questions, so all your meta is welcome ;)

But, what I don't understand, is why I'm the only one to be so fucking traumatized by Elena's "should"? How can anybody even JUDGE her (thus by determining wether she is right or wrong), when she is clearly UNABLE to make any choice. Honestly, there was no choice in this finale. At least not in my eyes. But maybe I'm over-identifying again?

Please just, at least read my post on this (Elena's choice of Stefan's love) and tell me what you think. I'm very confused about this right now. (Ugh, teen vampire shows. My life is officially ruined right now.)

[upupa_epops]

Is there a different degree of wrongness between Andie's and Jeremy's compulsion?

There is, because Jeremy was only compelled, while Andie was compelled AND raped AND fed off. Three crimes instead of one.

Hmm, I'm not sure if Andie is a good example. What Damon did to her was flat out wrong, just like Stefan playing bloody twister was flat out wrong. Neither of them faced any dilemma here. They were both aiming to hurt, they consciously did what they did with malicious intentions. We can't talk about a moral problem or about subjective views on right or wrong when the characters harm someone just because they can.

But, what I don't understand, is why I'm the only one to be so fucking traumatized by Elena's "should"? How can anybody even JUDGE her (thus by determining wether she is right or wrong), when she is clearly UNABLE to make any choice.

What's interesting is that, after the finale, it seems to me that it's mostly ELENA who judges herself for not being able to make a choice? Because she's wrapped in her circle of self-blaming, and the finale connected this trauma to her parents' deaths. They died because she acted on "want", chose her pleasure and went for a party. So people die when she acts on "want". So she can't. She decides she will always do what she SHOULD do, because she owes that to everyone. It's terribly unhealthy, but it makes a perfect sense that she'd think like that.

I promise I'll get to your post as soon as I'm done with all the things I'm supposed to be doing now... I'm on a writing spree, which usually results in being terribly behind with my reading. But I promise I'll get there and talk to you!

[vergoldung]

Oh, no. There is no question wether what Damon did to Andie was wrong or not. I didn't mean it like that. Actually I exactly did. My point was (why do I try to make point by asking questions? I have issues) that Jeremy's compulsion takes place within a different context. And that different context (Elena's reasons for compelling him, the fact that the compulsion wasn't placed on him in order to hurt him) changes the way we perceive his compulsion. The thing is, the fact that Damon physically rapes Andie isn't intrinsic to his compulsion. He could have raped her without it. He could have compelled her without physically raping her. Compulsion per se already is a form of rape - of the mind. I think it's very dangerous to consider Jeremy's compulsion less wrong, because he wasn't hurt as much as Andie. But again, that's what's so fascinating about TVD's moral grayness. The fact that killing or compelling are wrong is never a question. The question is wether it's acceptable or absolutely unforgivable. And that's when the context makes all the difference. When we judge Damon for Andie's compulsion and Elena for Jeremy's, we absolutely have to consider what they did with the compulsion, as well as why they did it. There is no way for Damon to be absolved from his crime. But wether Elena can be forgiven remains something very subjective. Damon absolves her instantly, telling her that Jeremy is lucky to have her as his sister. Bonnie gives her the side-eye for a few days. Elena herself condemns her actions, she knows how wrong it was. But doesn't regret them (I think). If she has to be the bad guy, so be it. But there is no definite answer given by the show regarding the degree of her guilt in the matter. (Was that clearer?)

It's terribly unhealthy, but it makes a perfect sense that she'd think like that.
I can absolutely agree with that, even if I didn't perceive that way while watching. I think it makes a lot of sense, considering the heavy parallels thrown in our faces during the episode. But I can't help but feel like this is only how Elena's brain work at a conscious level. So yes, she is certainly the one who judges herself the harshest. The guilt that she feels regarding her parent's death definitely plays an important part in her reasoning, both consciously and unconsciously. She owes it to her parents to do the right choices, but most importantly, to go on living. And I can't help but think that in the back of her mind she automatically associates that with Stefan. (Ugh, a scene study of her discussion with Matt is in order. Maybe it would bring me off this idea?)

Don't bother with the whole post, just read the end. The first part is just me fangirling about the show ;) because, yes, I actually loved the finale.

[upupa_epops]

I think it's very dangerous to consider Jeremy's compulsion less wrong, because he wasn't hurt as much as Andie.

I would say that there are degrees of evil here. There's a difference between Damon compelling Elena to forget that she met him in the forest and Damon compelling Andie to not be afraid of him. In both cases its a violation of the mind, and it's wrong, but with Andie, it's even more wrong, because the violation goes further. Not just erasing a single, insignificant event, but messing with a genuine emotional reaction. With Jeremy and Andie, the difference is slight, but there are degrees of evil in compulsion. (Or I'm morally depraved...)

Thank you for explaining, much clearer now :D.

And I can't help but think that in the back of her mind she automatically associates that with Stefan.

Sure she does. Stefan saved her life, he's "the good brother", she makes her be the better, nicer, more functional version of herself. It's perfectly understandable that she does it. Sick, but logical.

[vergoldung]

With Jeremy and Andie, the difference is slight, but there are degrees of evil in compulsion. (Or I'm morally depraved...)
I think in the end it's come to how you define the essence of said compulsion. If you look at it as a whole (the mind violation + the content of the given order) then yes, there is undoubtedly a moral scale to consider. If you consider the compulsion as a two stepped occurance (which I have a tendency to do - I like to dissect things), first the mind-control, then what you do with the power of that mind control, then only the latter makes a difference. I don't know, I guess it's just a question of concept...? But I think we pretty much agree in the end, because there is no doubt that, as a whole, these different compulsions can't be the same level of evil.

Stefan saved her life, he's "the good brother", she makes her be the better, nicer, more functional version of herself.
I'm having a lot of thoughts about this lately. If I have enough of them, maybe I'll make a post about her death wish struggle. Since I can't seem to get rid of this wacky idea at this point, I may as well get it out of my system. (I can't believe I'm already on LJ at 8 in the morning, on a freaking monday! Ugh me.)