a matter of opinion
A few years ago (the exact date is lost), an incredibly narcissistic guy visited the W0KIE Radio IRC channel, and gave some of us a bunch of crap about various things. Here is an edited except of log, picking up from around the point where we got onto the subject of fact versus opinion, unto the conversation's brutal but excellent end.
[Unfortunately the original log is trapped on a dead hard drive. All that i still have is what i clipped out and posted to qdb.us and bash.org (both of which rejected them-not only because the mods are mostly a bunch of shallow dicks, but because it's rather long).]
[The messages with *asterisks flanking the nickname* are private traffic between myself (Brian) and wisp.]
well we each have our opinions Opinions are nonsense unless there is reason to support it. Yesh, ignorance is bliss for you. so my opinion doesnt count? No ones opinion does. Only facts matter. i wrote a poem :NICK:Renee = Renee-AFK OOooo can I please see it before I go? he aliens are here the last battle is upon us the cia wants me to help but i'm going for a bike ride, the stars are out tonight ggg Hannah I like it thanks That poem makes absolutely no sense.
no it doesn't. it makes perfect sense Ok, elucidate. to me it does crazies are always able to effectively communicate ;) Nope, not really. no I cant, as it would just be my opinion on the poem and my opinion doesnt count If your opinion can be backed by evidence, it becomes fact. the poem is art and art only reflects ones opinion. it means different things to different people
in my opinion, your evidence is no more valid than mine No, if that were true, then pornography would be considered an art form...and it really isn't. If it means different things than it probably doesn't have any objective meaning. arcording to your opinion According to fact. i know some artsy pornographers. i live with one There is a difference between art and pornography.
the poem is about ugly futility versus beautiful futility and she has sex as art, on film, and sells it for profit I'd have to view the video to determine if it is art or not.
pornography *is* art. vulgarity does not make something non-art aristotle73, i will arrange it ;)
if offending someone makes something non-art, then nothing is art Pornography has no point other than to explicitly depict individuals engaging in explicit sexual acts to incite intense sexual excitement for profit. It would be art if it did it to incite sexual excitement for the sake of sexual excitement. hey, some people can be turned on by a piece of bread ooh baby
you are incorrectly assuming that all pornography is performed for profit Renee-AFK: No they can't. Show me evidence that people have. Hannah, how about some.......toast?? oooooooh baby Yesh, pornography is produced for profit. It also entails exploitation.
can you PROVE that there is NO pornography that is produced without exploitation and without pecuniary interest?
a woman's bare ankle was once considered pornographic That's merely a cultural preference. It is irrelevant to whether the ankle being displayed is for the purpose of aesthetics or to give a cheap thrill. ok..better example..there are some that are turned on by shoes, and there is evidence of that
your perception of art is highly subjective. everyone's is. art is, by its very nature, subjective exploitation? hah! that's when i call you full of shit! sure there are exploited sex workers.. it happens when people are un-educated.. but there is also an entire industry built around trust and caring and art and having sex in front of cameras.. i know a handful of pornographers who are very respectful and well paying and believe 100% they are producing art Renee-AFK: Yesh, and pornography regarding that fetish is made and exhibited solely for the purpose of profit. Art regarding the fetish, however, tends to reflect views about the fetish or detail the beauty they seem to find in shoes.
there is no such thing as objective art Brian: No, one can tell when something is being done for the sake of art. [much ado about pornography omited] Art is the representation of that fetish in a creative manner that has meaning and purpose.
art is not required to have meaning, nor purpose Art is meant to have meaning and purpose. Without meaning and purpose, art is nothing.
that is utility Negative
art is not about utility (though utility can be art)
you are far too linear Art is not utility at all. I disagree with your use of the word.
um. i just said that Art is not meant to be used.
you said that it must have "meaning and purpose" [much ado about semantics omitted] *wisp*are you familiar with the eliza bot? *Brian*Weisenbaum's? *wisp*i dunno.. it's replicated far and wide.. you could replace your client with an eliza script and ari would go all night :) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA]
art can have utility, but does not need to. it does not need to have meaning nor purpose Incorrect. Art is always made with the intention of having meaning and purpose. *Brian*dig this...
tell me why you feel art is always made with the intention of having meaning and purpose. Because it is always has aesthetic value or philosophical intentions.
and that is important to you? *Brian*thanks for the idea :D :D Show me art with the intention of showing art without intention, and you win.
interesting *wisp*"how does that make you feel?"
is winning important to you? Changing the subject are you? What does it have to do with this conversation? Nothing.
how does that make you feel? *Brian*ironically, this is also art (and funny as hell) *wisp*hehe That's cool. Its intent is to be aesthetically pleasing. One can tell from the fractal like ordering, and also the arrangement of colors. and the deeper meaning is that there is no meaning wisp: But it has purpose. no it doesn't. art has no purpose That purpose is aesthetics.
i find a woman's body aesthetically pleasing Lol
i find the sounds that she makes during sexual stimulation aesthetically pleasing Brian: Good for you, show them in a way that specifically highlights those sounds and figures that please you and you have art.
i find orgasm aesthetically pleasing
there are aspects of popular porn that tend to bug me (e.g. full-screen gash shots) but other find them aesthetically pleasing. art is subjective Brian: Some pornography has some artistic value. On the whole though, it isn't art.
in your opinion :) Negative.
art revolves around opinion No, perception of art revolves around opinion. Meaning and purpose are objective.
are you always so negative? I have to be when others are incorrect. *laugh*
do you feel that others are incorrect often? Not feel, I know. I've studied Philosophy and Aesthetics and there are many incorrect views about art.
can you elabourate on that? Yesh, many think art is without purpose or meaning when that is fundamentally how one identifies what art is. Take the Mona Lisa, does it have meaning or purpose? Probably not, however the style and intention of beauty of the painted figure hints at something more.
please go on *Brian*Renee is now pasting his lines into an Eliza web page Its original meaning and purpose are pretty much lost with the artist itself. However it also consists of historical significance as it was painted by Da Vinci.
Would you like it if they were not pretty much lost with the artist itself? Moreover, the historical significance of even some of the lewdest Japanese wood prints have value even if it is not aesthetic specifically. Ok, explain why Da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa.
Do you wish that it is not aesthetic specifically? What?
please go on ?
Does that question interest you? Your questions make no sense whatsoever and you sound more like a bot or script...
Does it bother you that my questions make no sense whatsoever and i sound more like a bot or script? your questions make you gay.
We're talking about you, not me. 5:31Brian: Whatever. Stupid script smartass. Can't defend your position intellectually so you resort to attempted humiliation eh? Whatever, I'm off to play UT2004. FU. 5:32
(art) 5:34bravo! bravo! 5:39* Brianbows 6:09Asshole. 6:14is that a fact?