Socialism, Female Characters in YA, and Redwall

[twirlynoodle]

A few years ago, when Occupy was doing their thing and their grievances and agenda were in the news, I had this thought:

These are clever, resourceful, idealistic, fit young people in their prime, who evidently don't mind a bit of discomfort to prove a point. If they want to reject the system, why don't they pool their resources, launch a

Comments

[furtech]

If I had read the Redwall books as a kid, I would probably be a fan, too. However, the things that would have attracted me to the books when young-- particularly the black-and-white villains/good-guys-- bother me as an adult (and I read the books as an adult). The vermin=evil=should-be-killed has echoes of WWII propaganda (probably from his experiences growing up during WWII).

I kept wanting him to have good foxes, ferrets or rats-- even just one or two. Nope. Even the titular character of Outcast of Redwall seems to support that even vermin raised by good folk cannot help but be "bad".

The first few books were enjoyable reads, but the same themes and characters started to become stale. I wish his storytelling and characters would have gotten more sophisticated as he wrote (as with the Harry Potter books), but that never happened (and in fact, became more and more juvenile and predictable as the books went on.

[twirlynoodle]

I agree with you for the most part, and I can't imagine liking them so much discovering them as an adult. I've always thought, though, that the assignment of species to characters is more effect than cause (i.e. you are an otter because you are good, not good because you're an otter), in the way species tend to be assigned in animated films, but then we veer into super hypothetical metaphysics which I don't think the books warrant at all. I liked the world and adventures. Philosophical implications are Pratchett's domain.

I did notice even as a teenager an abrupt change in quality after Martin the Warrior, and my rereads were limited to the first six in the series. I suspected a ghostwriter at the time because the output increased dramatically as well, and there were occasional glimmers of the 'real' B.J., but looking back at it now that might have been simply the shift from writing something he cared about to churning out books for money. Who knows

[furtech]

I never thought of looking at the characters that way ( "you are an otter because you are good, not good because you're an otter"). Huh. That kind of characterization reminds me more of C.S. Lewis's "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe" -- but he was very much into the metaphysical stuff you talk about

[twirlynoodle]

Lewis did the metaphysical and so did Grahame (Wind in the Willows), and Jacques is definitely following in their footsteps (especially Grahame's) even if he keeps clear of the metaphysical in his own writing. There was a little more of that in his non-Redwall books, if I recall, but not as well-developed. I wonder if the class associations made him uncomfortable swimming in that pool, or if leaving school at 15 he just didn't get exposed to the sort of stuff that would have brought greater philosophical depth to his writing. We may never know.

It surprises me that for all the people who raise the same objections you do to the 'speciesism' - especially ones in my generation - no one has looked at it from the other angle. Surely they all grew up with the same animated films I did? It's not like I'm applying some esoteric logic to it, I was just assuming it worked on the same basis as Robin Hood and The Lion KingI hear you on the redemption thing, but, well ... not every story can be a redemption story, I suppose. I wonder if that

[furtech]

You are clearly more studied on Jacques than I: the rigid societal classes and the war probably had significant influence on his writing.

WRT the speciesism, if there were fifteen sequels to TLK or Robin Hood and -no- sympathetic "evil" characters/species or genuinely "good" ones-- I would have the same criticism. In most animated series there is usually at least one episode that either features sympathetic bad guys or sheds insight/empathy for the main villain. Rowling handled Snape and even Voldemort very well (IMO) that sense. I'm not looking for a major shift in the series-- just -one- instance would have made me happy.

I wonder if the European folktale tradition-- with it's wise and resourceful women-- has something to do with how they treat female characters. Wise and practical mothers/grandmothers and plucky, resourceful princesses. America-- melting pot that it is-- does not have that sort of foundation for its storytellers.

[twirlynoodle]

OK, I get your point, yes. Considering how long the series went on after I stopped reading it's definitely a lost opportunity.

I personally think the war and post-war years were what informed his 'women can do anything' attitude, because they would have - they worked and kept things running when the men were away, took bombs and food shortages in their stride, still kept everything running when he was off earning a paycheque, and some of the men didn't come home at all. The stereotypical '50s American housewife would have collapsed in the rubble of post-war Liverpool

[ardys_the_ghoul]

I think there WAS one instance.

As I recall, in one of the Redwall books (I want to say it was "The Bellmaker," but my memory is hazy on that), there was a crew of pirate rats, and one of them turned out to be Not Such a Bad Guy After All and became friends with the animals of Redwall. It was kind of a, "We did a terrible thing to these people, and now I have to make it right," kind of situation.

I have the same problem as you do with good and evil being specific to species in those books, so I think that's why that one character stands out in my mind. He was the one instance of a GOOD rat.

[azvolrien]

There were a couple of sympathetic vermin characters - and I'm using the word 'couple' in its true meaning rather than its colloquial one, because I can literally only think of two: Blaggut (a rat) from The Bellmaker and Romsca (a stoat, IIRC) from The Pearls of Lutra. But that's all I'm coming up with.