"Let women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."
As well as 1 Timothy 2:11-13 "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve."
You find that women, when they got a word from God, they took it to their male spiritual leader. For example of Deborah. God gave her a word. She took it to Barak. Same with me. I know that God has given me prophecies on different occassions. I don't just speak them out. I take it to Murph, my male leader. He confirms it and shares it.
On another personal note, traveling with 6 different guys and being a leader in the ministry, I have learned and see first hand, how men deal with a woman being a leader over them. Now many of these guys are men of God I respect. Now most of them have told me on different occassions two things, either, "Courtney, I don't believe in woman having a leadership over a guy, but it is so easy to submit to you!" or "I do believe a woman can hold a leadership over a man and I have no problem listening to her." BUT I will testify that so far that all 6 have struggled with submitting to my authority. They fight it so many times, even if it isn't their intention. Now, I don't blame them fully for this, because it is my observation that men were born to rule over women. It is the way God made them. Men are the head. I need to add though that I do think it is possible for a woman to hold and have an amazing ministry even though I don't think it is God's perfect will. I am amazed at women like Joyce Leslie and Kathreen Kulman. BUT I think that God had a man for that jub that wasn't willing to step out. Therefore He used those women.
I think that men are more offended about these scriptures then women are. Personally, if I have to be under a guy, FINE! I've been submitted to God for so many year, and look at the blessed life I have. When did submission become bondage? Submission to men is submission to God. But it is something you must be willing to do.
Haha wow that was much longer than I intended! SORRY!
Those scriptures are cultural in context. Meaning: in those times, women weren't even allowed in the same room as men yet. When they finally were (in the Timothy reference) they were warned not to abuse the privilege by doing things like speaking out of turn, or exerted unjustified authority. They were not told to never speak before men.
And I disagree that God had a better "man" for the job. It is said that in the last days the spirit will be poured out on all men and women, and they will be the same in the kingdom. And that aside, it's common sense that women know and relate to women better, and it makes sense to have women teach women. And once again, where is there scripture that says God perfect will is to not have women teach?
With regards to your 6 gentleman friends...they do not have a problem with women's authority, they have a problem with authority...period. Submitting to authority is not an issue of gender. Authority is ordained by God, and therefore must be obeyed as if you were obeying God. If women were not supposed to be over me, and I was supposed to be uncomfortable with that, then by all means I should quit my job because I am a Christian man with a female Assisstant Manager and Manager.
When you start making statements that the bible is cultural in parts, it opens opportunity to say that other areas are cultural. This arguement is the same one used by homosexuals. Why can't I say that God was being cultural when He said we had to have one spouse? God is the same today, yesterday, and forever. I take His word to be nothing less than His word. We must not view the bible as a man written document, but remember it is God inspired. Nothing was put in it with out God's approval. We must ask ourselves why these verses are found in there. I am not making an arguement that it isn't biblical for women to teach women. I think it is needed and bible supported. It is when there are men present I don't agree with. As for the guy who don't submit...I must point out they show no struggles to submitting to my co-leader, Murph, a man.
Kathreen Kulhman, and amazing woman that I mentioned before even stated herself that God called a man to run her ministry and he backed out. She knows that she is in her ministry because men weren't willing to step up. Now about your job, again you must keep in mind that this is a spiritual leadership debate. We are talking about a church setting. If I was teaching fine arts to these men, well, I sure wouldn't be uncomfortable. All I can say to finish this is that when I am up there, speaking, so many times, I am as uncomfortable as all get out.
Thanks for replying dude! Hope all is peachy in Jersey w/ you
So then tattoos should be outlawed. And so should piercings. Because the Bible clearly states that they were not allowed.
Wrong. That was because the markings and things that people did in that passage were religious in nature, and were ceremonial parts of pagan practice.
You are right, everything in the Bible is there for a reason. I'm not contesting that. What I am contesting is the refusal to holistically view the text. Like I said, the Word says that in the last days the anointing will be poured out on all. It all says that men and women will be considered equal in his kingdom. There are obvious limits to that that I will not repeat because we've mentioned them several times, but one of those limits is not what you think it is.
A struggle with a leader because of who or what they are, if they are truly God ordained, has high potential of being the beginning of (if not full-on) rebellion. And rebellion against God ordained leaders, male or female, is rebellion against God himself. Period. We are NOT ALLOWED to have issues like "oh, well, it's hard for me to get along with this leader because (insert reason here)." If they are ordained by the Lord, they are followed. Not questioned. Now, I say "questioning" in the rebellious sense, not the constructive. David had every earthly right to have an issue against Saul, but he was the anointed leader, and he was followed without question.
The kingdom of God is not a Christian social club. The biggest point about Christianity is this: IT'S NOT ABOUT CHRISTIANS. It's about the lost. Life isn't supposed to be uncomfortable, but you are meant to be stretched. Issues like not being totally 100% with you're leader are a strech...and we need them to develop an area of our character that needs stretching. I have people in my life who may not be the leader I ever expected to have, but they are God ordained and I follow them as I follow Christ, as Paul would say. Because it's NOT ABOUT ME. I develop my character by submitting to the authority, male or female, that God places over me. Because in that character development, God makes me a bigger man so that I can be used more by Him to win the lost. Even the improvement of one's self is a totally outwardly focused endeavor when done truly according to Him.
As for the woman who is a leader because someone backed out: cool. Step up, do what you have to. But don't back out yourself because of who you are. David was a Sheppard and became king. Elisha was a farmer and became one of the greatest prophets. The apostles were tax collectors, fisherman, and workers, and changed the world for Jesus. JESUS was the son of a carpenter, with what many who didn't know him would call a shady past, and HE was the SAVIOR OF ALL. It's not about who you are: position, gender, race, social class. It's about what God wants you to be. Any other thought pattern is selfish and agenda based on some level.
And lastly, regarding church versus outside life: There is no shift. ALL leaders are God ordained. Billy Graham, Brian Houston, Margaret Thatcher, George Bush, your boss, your teacher, WHOEVER. If they weren't supposed to be there they wouldn't be there. God is in control. With that in mind, you can't have one leadership dynamic inside and outside of church. Obviously there are differences between work and church, but as to how you treat people, whether leader or peer, there is no line.
"Let women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."
As well as 1 Timothy 2:11-13
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve."
You find that women, when they got a word from God, they took it to their male spiritual leader. For example of Deborah. God gave her a word. She took it to Barak. Same with me. I know that God has given me prophecies on different occassions. I don't just speak them out. I take it to Murph, my male leader. He confirms it and shares it.
On another personal note, traveling with 6 different guys and being a leader in the ministry, I have learned and see first hand, how men deal with a woman being a leader over them. Now many of these guys are men of God I respect. Now most of them have told me on different occassions two things, either, "Courtney, I don't believe in woman having a leadership over a guy, but it is so easy to submit to you!" or "I do believe a woman can hold a leadership over a man and I have no problem listening to her." BUT I will testify that so far that all 6 have struggled with submitting to my authority. They fight it so many times, even if it isn't their intention. Now, I don't blame them fully for this, because it is my observation that men were born to rule over women. It is the way God made them. Men are the head.
I need to add though that I do think it is possible for a woman to hold and have an amazing ministry even though I don't think it is God's perfect will. I am amazed at women like Joyce Leslie and Kathreen Kulman. BUT I think that God had a man for that jub that wasn't willing to step out. Therefore He used those women.
I think that men are more offended about these scriptures then women are. Personally, if I have to be under a guy, FINE! I've been submitted to God for so many year, and look at the blessed life I have. When did submission become bondage? Submission to men is submission to God. But it is something you must be willing to do.
Haha wow that was much longer than I intended! SORRY!
Reply
And I disagree that God had a better "man" for the job. It is said that in the last days the spirit will be poured out on all men and women, and they will be the same in the kingdom. And that aside, it's common sense that women know and relate to women better, and it makes sense to have women teach women. And once again, where is there scripture that says God perfect will is to not have women teach?
With regards to your 6 gentleman friends...they do not have a problem with women's authority, they have a problem with authority...period. Submitting to authority is not an issue of gender. Authority is ordained by God, and therefore must be obeyed as if you were obeying God. If women were not supposed to be over me, and I was supposed to be uncomfortable with that, then by all means I should quit my job because I am a Christian man with a female Assisstant Manager and Manager.
jJ
Reply
Why can't I say that God was being cultural when He said we had to have one spouse? God is the same today, yesterday, and forever. I take His word to be nothing less than His word. We must not view the bible as a man written document, but remember it is God inspired. Nothing was put in it with out God's approval. We must ask ourselves why these verses are found in there.
I am not making an arguement that it isn't biblical for women to teach women. I think it is needed and bible supported. It is when there are men present I don't agree with.
As for the guy who don't submit...I must point out they show no struggles to submitting to my co-leader, Murph, a man.
Kathreen Kulhman, and amazing woman that I mentioned before even stated herself that God called a man to run her ministry and he backed out. She knows that she is in her ministry because men weren't willing to step up.
Now about your job, again you must keep in mind that this is a spiritual leadership debate. We are talking about a church setting. If I was teaching fine arts to these men, well, I sure wouldn't be uncomfortable. All I can say to finish this is that when I am up there, speaking, so many times, I am as uncomfortable as all get out.
Thanks for replying dude!
Hope all is peachy in Jersey w/ you
Reply
Wrong. That was because the markings and things that people did in that passage were religious in nature, and were ceremonial parts of pagan practice.
You are right, everything in the Bible is there for a reason. I'm not contesting that. What I am contesting is the refusal to holistically view the text. Like I said, the Word says that in the last days the anointing will be poured out on all. It all says that men and women will be considered equal in his kingdom. There are obvious limits to that that I will not repeat because we've mentioned them several times, but one of those limits is not what you think it is.
A struggle with a leader because of who or what they are, if they are truly God ordained, has high potential of being the beginning of (if not full-on) rebellion. And rebellion against God ordained leaders, male or female, is rebellion against God himself. Period. We are NOT ALLOWED to have issues like "oh, well, it's hard for me to get along with this leader because (insert reason here)." If they are ordained by the Lord, they are followed. Not questioned. Now, I say "questioning" in the rebellious sense, not the constructive. David had every earthly right to have an issue against Saul, but he was the anointed leader, and he was followed without question.
The kingdom of God is not a Christian social club. The biggest point about Christianity is this: IT'S NOT ABOUT CHRISTIANS. It's about the lost. Life isn't supposed to be uncomfortable, but you are meant to be stretched. Issues like not being totally 100% with you're leader are a strech...and we need them to develop an area of our character that needs stretching. I have people in my life who may not be the leader I ever expected to have, but they are God ordained and I follow them as I follow Christ, as Paul would say. Because it's NOT ABOUT ME. I develop my character by submitting to the authority, male or female, that God places over me. Because in that character development, God makes me a bigger man so that I can be used more by Him to win the lost. Even the improvement of one's self is a totally outwardly focused endeavor when done truly according to Him.
As for the woman who is a leader because someone backed out: cool. Step up, do what you have to. But don't back out yourself because of who you are. David was a Sheppard and became king. Elisha was a farmer and became one of the greatest prophets. The apostles were tax collectors, fisherman, and workers, and changed the world for Jesus. JESUS was the son of a carpenter, with what many who didn't know him would call a shady past, and HE was the SAVIOR OF ALL. It's not about who you are: position, gender, race, social class. It's about what God wants you to be. Any other thought pattern is selfish and agenda based on some level.
And lastly, regarding church versus outside life: There is no shift. ALL leaders are God ordained. Billy Graham, Brian Houston, Margaret Thatcher, George Bush, your boss, your teacher, WHOEVER. If they weren't supposed to be there they wouldn't be there. God is in control. With that in mind, you can't have one leadership dynamic inside and outside of church. Obviously there are differences between work and church, but as to how you treat people, whether leader or peer, there is no line.
jJ
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jJ
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