The wonderful world of 'reality'
As well as changes to stats and racial bonuses and modifiers, there are also changes to the CM list.
You may not know that the GM's took pity on all the professions that couldn't take advantage of the nifty guild skills and removed all combat skills from the warrior and rogue guilds and put them into the new CM List. I, for one, was delighted. I seemed almost alone in that feeling at first. Tsoran initially quit the game over just that. But for me, high up on my list of things to hate is drudgery. And interminable drudgery, aka the guild and it's skills, is on my 'avoid at all costs' list. My warrior belongs to the warrior guild, but she was a lousy warrior when it came to learning the skills. Batter Barriers was what she joined to get, and with 13 ranks in it, she pretty much quit going to the guild other than to pay her dues.
As time went by, more and more people came out to say they, too, were glad to be spared the unending bore of gaining skills. When the die-hard fans of drudgery complained that it was reality to need to work hard to learn things, GM Ozias posted this and named it 'A really Bad Idea':
One of the things that always struck me as odd in Gemstone is how equal everyone is. I don't mean that we don't have racial and professional diversity, with different baselines and stats progressions and training paths...we do. I mean that every time you train in a skill, you get X benefit for that training. That's not really the way it works, is it?
There is, in the real world, that horribly frustrating thing called "talent" which means that of the two people who hit the gym every evening at 5:30 and put in similar time and effort, one can run a 5 minute mile and the other jogs along at 9 minutes. One can hit the three-pointer with a hand in his face and the other needs to be all alone from ten feet.
When I first heard of the goals we were looking to achieve in GS4, I thought talent would be one way of achieving that. Have an invisible factor attach to every character. Once they hit a certain level, before which a given amount of training could guarantee a certain result, they would have to meet a talent roll in order to gain benefits from that training. So that, if you trained for level 21, say, you might get the expected +1 to AS from weapons training. Or if you were exceptionally talented and lucky, you might get an unexpected +2. Or you might hit the wall and gain 0, or even slip a bit with -1.
A system like this would allow people to continue training, while guaranteeing that their growth from training was slowed. If most characters were averagely talented, they would advance slowly after title, and rarely after legend ... and not at all after they reached an internal limit.
Such a system would be really frustrating. When I've talked to players about why they come to this game, it often has to do with overcoming the limitations that real-world talent imposes on them. While some folks want their real-world talent for number crunching (or available hours or $$ or whatever) to give them special advantages here, most gamers are fiercely committed to a level playing field. They're not egalitarian, exactly--they crave the hierarchies that the game establishes--but they want an equal shot at the top. They want to determine for themselves what limitations they'll accept (by, for example, placing their stats a certain way, or choosing a particular race/profession combo). They want to know that their playing time will be rewarded (however they play and however they conceive of rewards), and that they'll be in control of the process. I think that's as true of the casual gamer as it is of the stats cruncher.
So while I think a talent system would work, and satisfy our desire for realism, it makes for lousy game design.
~Oz, Swinger of Birches (and, for obvious reasons, not in charge of experience systems)
Tsoran then chimed in with this post:
Reality is definitely over-rated.
Every time I hear someone say we should do something because it would be more realistic, I cringe.
The next time you think of a system that would be more realistic, consider this one. We already have all the necessary sub-systems in the game. It would just take a bit of glue to tie it all together.
***PREGNANCY***
Yup, that's right, you know all those locked rooms? Well, put two people of the appropriate gender in one of them for, oh, a certain period of time (2 minutes if a guy is designing the system, at least an hour if a woman is), and certain flags get set.
Much like the dwarven rot, subtle effects start taking place, a week or two later. Well, first thing the female would notice is a feeling a nausea the next time she tries to eat something. This would be exacerbated by the 130 spell.
After a few months, of course, her appearance changes. Worse yet, she slows down. Say goodbye to swinging that two handed behemoth in 5 seconds. It will probably take at least 15 now. Forget about climbing. Heck, standing up will take 30 seconds.
This, of course, will go on for nine months. Real time. Assuming you're human. You're an elf? Didn't you know the gestation period for an elf is 27 months? You'll be in this condition until sometime in 2006.
And, yes, finally the blessed event arrives. If you thought being pregnant was hard, just wait till you try fighting off an invasion with a baby in one hand.
Fortunately, it's a good thing GS4 will allow for new professions, because we'll need people to play the children. Just select 'SNERT' in the character manager. (Talk about staying in character!)
OK, are we over that reality thing yet?
--Tsoran
http://www.tsoran.com/
tsoran@tsoran.com
AIM: GSTsoran
My own final thought on the subject of reality in GS is, next time you want reality in the game, or start thinking that the CM list of skills should be worked for, say "Pregnancy."
And now here is the Official Word on Combat Maneuvers:
Combat Maneuvers (CM) will have a new twist that will add flavor to the professions that opt to train in it. CM will be placed in four categories: Warrior, Rogue, Combined Warrior/Rogue, and Open (available to all Physical and Semi professions with sufficient CM skill). As characters increase their training in CM, they will be able to choose additional CM skills. Some CM skills require a certain level of knowledge in other skills. For example, a Haymaker maneuver might require a certain amount of Brawling skill, while Shield Bash would require a certain level of expertise in the Shield Use skill. In order to train in certain secondary CM skills, there will be prerequisite skills which must be obtained first. Some of the new CM skills include, but are not limited to:
Cheapshots
Head Butt
Stun Maneuvers
Combat Skill Mastery
Mighty Blow
Subdual Strike
Coup de Grace
Quick Strike
Sucker Punch
Disarm Weapon
Shadow Mastery
Sunder Shield
Dust Kick
Shield Bash
Tackle
Feint
Shield Charge
Twin Hammerfists
Garrote
Side by Side
Weapon Precision
I am really looking forward to my newly skilled warrior in GS4, I must admi
You may not know that the GM's took pity on all the professions that couldn't take advantage of the nifty guild skills and removed all combat skills from the warrior and rogue guilds and put them into the new CM List. I, for one, was delighted. I seemed almost alone in that feeling at first. Tsoran initially quit the game over just that. But for me, high up on my list of things to hate is drudgery. And interminable drudgery, aka the guild and it's skills, is on my 'avoid at all costs' list. My warrior belongs to the warrior guild, but she was a lousy warrior when it came to learning the skills. Batter Barriers was what she joined to get, and with 13 ranks in it, she pretty much quit going to the guild other than to pay her dues.
As time went by, more and more people came out to say they, too, were glad to be spared the unending bore of gaining skills. When the die-hard fans of drudgery complained that it was reality to need to work hard to learn things, GM Ozias posted this and named it 'A really Bad Idea':
One of the things that always struck me as odd in Gemstone is how equal everyone is. I don't mean that we don't have racial and professional diversity, with different baselines and stats progressions and training paths...we do. I mean that every time you train in a skill, you get X benefit for that training. That's not really the way it works, is it?
There is, in the real world, that horribly frustrating thing called "talent" which means that of the two people who hit the gym every evening at 5:30 and put in similar time and effort, one can run a 5 minute mile and the other jogs along at 9 minutes. One can hit the three-pointer with a hand in his face and the other needs to be all alone from ten feet.
When I first heard of the goals we were looking to achieve in GS4, I thought talent would be one way of achieving that. Have an invisible factor attach to every character. Once they hit a certain level, before which a given amount of training could guarantee a certain result, they would have to meet a talent roll in order to gain benefits from that training. So that, if you trained for level 21, say, you might get the expected +1 to AS from weapons training. Or if you were exceptionally talented and lucky, you might get an unexpected +2. Or you might hit the wall and gain 0, or even slip a bit with -1.
A system like this would allow people to continue training, while guaranteeing that their growth from training was slowed. If most characters were averagely talented, they would advance slowly after title, and rarely after legend ... and not at all after they reached an internal limit.
Such a system would be really frustrating. When I've talked to players about why they come to this game, it often has to do with overcoming the limitations that real-world talent imposes on them. While some folks want their real-world talent for number crunching (or available hours or $$ or whatever) to give them special advantages here, most gamers are fiercely committed to a level playing field. They're not egalitarian, exactly--they crave the hierarchies that the game establishes--but they want an equal shot at the top. They want to determine for themselves what limitations they'll accept (by, for example, placing their stats a certain way, or choosing a particular race/profession combo). They want to know that their playing time will be rewarded (however they play and however they conceive of rewards), and that they'll be in control of the process. I think that's as true of the casual gamer as it is of the stats cruncher.
So while I think a talent system would work, and satisfy our desire for realism, it makes for lousy game design.
~Oz, Swinger of Birches (and, for obvious reasons, not in charge of experience systems)
Tsoran then chimed in with this post:
Reality is definitely over-rated.
Every time I hear someone say we should do something because it would be more realistic, I cringe.
The next time you think of a system that would be more realistic, consider this one. We already have all the necessary sub-systems in the game. It would just take a bit of glue to tie it all together.
***PREGNANCY***
Yup, that's right, you know all those locked rooms? Well, put two people of the appropriate gender in one of them for, oh, a certain period of time (2 minutes if a guy is designing the system, at least an hour if a woman is), and certain flags get set.
Much like the dwarven rot, subtle effects start taking place, a week or two later. Well, first thing the female would notice is a feeling a nausea the next time she tries to eat something. This would be exacerbated by the 130 spell.
After a few months, of course, her appearance changes. Worse yet, she slows down. Say goodbye to swinging that two handed behemoth in 5 seconds. It will probably take at least 15 now. Forget about climbing. Heck, standing up will take 30 seconds.
This, of course, will go on for nine months. Real time. Assuming you're human. You're an elf? Didn't you know the gestation period for an elf is 27 months? You'll be in this condition until sometime in 2006.
And, yes, finally the blessed event arrives. If you thought being pregnant was hard, just wait till you try fighting off an invasion with a baby in one hand.
Fortunately, it's a good thing GS4 will allow for new professions, because we'll need people to play the children. Just select 'SNERT' in the character manager. (Talk about staying in character!)
OK, are we over that reality thing yet?
--Tsoran
http://www.tsoran.com/
tsoran@tsoran.com
AIM: GSTsoran
My own final thought on the subject of reality in GS is, next time you want reality in the game, or start thinking that the CM list of skills should be worked for, say "Pregnancy."
And now here is the Official Word on Combat Maneuvers:
Combat Maneuvers (CM) will have a new twist that will add flavor to the professions that opt to train in it. CM will be placed in four categories: Warrior, Rogue, Combined Warrior/Rogue, and Open (available to all Physical and Semi professions with sufficient CM skill). As characters increase their training in CM, they will be able to choose additional CM skills. Some CM skills require a certain level of knowledge in other skills. For example, a Haymaker maneuver might require a certain amount of Brawling skill, while Shield Bash would require a certain level of expertise in the Shield Use skill. In order to train in certain secondary CM skills, there will be prerequisite skills which must be obtained first. Some of the new CM skills include, but are not limited to:
Cheapshots
Head Butt
Stun Maneuvers
Combat Skill Mastery
Mighty Blow
Subdual Strike
Coup de Grace
Quick Strike
Sucker Punch
Disarm Weapon
Shadow Mastery
Sunder Shield
Dust Kick
Shield Bash
Tackle
Feint
Shield Charge
Twin Hammerfists
Garrote
Side by Side
Weapon Precision
I am really looking forward to my newly skilled warrior in GS4, I must admi