kespliget.....
Mmmm Debates rock, dad fucking rocks!
Tuckmaster85: Did carol tell you I stopped by last night?
TuckinJax: yeah. you want to do lunch some time this week?
TuckinJax: I'm open today, Wednesday, and Friday.
TuckinJax: tomorrow I have a lunch to finalize a bid, and thursday, I have to take Carolyn out to lunch.
Tuckmaster85: Lunch is fine, or dinner whichever you'd prefer, I'll have more lunch days available that dinner, but more time for dinner and probably nicer.
TuckinJax: it's up to you. Nothing tomorrow, though. It's really booked tight.
Tuckmaster85: alright
TuckinJax: I'm booked from 8 am until after 7 pm tomorrow.
Tuckmaster85: Well where would you like to go? Its a father's day dinner since I may not actually see you on father's day.
TuckinJax: you're going to miss the family reunion?
Tuckmaster85: If I can help it
Tuckmaster85: None of the people I would want to see are gonna be here anyway
TuckinJax: how do you know that?
Tuckmaster85: and the entire time I was there I'd be standing off to the side talking to you anyway.
Tuckmaster85: The uncle kent family isn't coming
TuckinJax: so you'll bail on me? gee, thanks. nice to know that I mean that much to you...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: and the only other people that I'd want to see is tommy and his family, but I see them a lot, and things seem to be getting weird with uncle tommy, I'm not as comfortable with him as I used to be,
Tuckmaster85: Well you are welcome to come with me
TuckinJax: sorry. I have an obligation.
Tuckmaster85: Well I offered,
TuckinJax: yeah, that's one big difference between us.
Tuckmaster85: And this past weekend was just about enough family for me.
Tuckmaster85: Whats that?
TuckinJax: while I don't always agree with my family and they frustrate the dickens out of me at times, I will go to the family stuff out of obligation.
Tuckmaster85: I will only do that if I think I'll actually contribute something.
Tuckmaster85: I have never been an important part of a tucker family reunion it will go just as well without me, except I won't be there to talk to the other people that don't want to be there
TuckinJax: Like I said, it's a difference between you and I.
Tuckmaster85: And I just lost about three hundred and fifty bucks helping sandy moved, and I missed bonnaroo
Tuckmaster85: to which I already had the $150 ticket
TuckinJax: okay.
Tuckmaster85: If I'm needed family comes first.
Tuckmaster85: but I won't help you guys any
Tuckmaster85: I'll be unhappy.
TuckinJax: Look, I'm not asking you to justify yourself. If you don't want to be there, then don't be there. I was just pointing out a difference between the two of us. Everyone is always telling me how much we're alike (something that I don't really see), but in this one thing, we're very different.
Tuckmaster85: lol
Tuckmaster85: Sorry if that sounded defensive or something, I'm having a rough morning, I didn't mean to come off that way, I'm just talking.
TuckinJax: okay. I just didn't want you to think I was trying to talk you into something.
Tuckmaster85: I know.
TuckinJax: oaky.
Tuckmaster85: Thats definately one of the biggest things I apriciate about talking to you, you very rarely try to talk me into something, you just talk.
Tuckmaster85: I can't think of any instance in the last year at least that you've tried to talk me into something,
TuckinJax: I don't know that I've ever tried to talk you into anything. I give you what I would like, I give you my reasons for it, and then I let you decide.
Tuckmaster85: That is an area in which we are very similar.
TuckinJax: to be honest, I don't want the stress of making decisions for anybody else.
Tuckmaster85: Well thats something we are different in, I'd rather make someone else's decisions than my own.
TuckinJax: you've never been in charge of 60 people who didn't want to be where you were.
Tuckmaster85: I'm confident in my ability, when completely emotionally uninvolved, to make the right decision. I only have a hard time making my own decisions because I let my emotions get in the way
TuckinJax: I'm a good leader. I've had enough practice at it. But my problem is that good leaders end up dealing with other people's mistakes.
TuckinJax: and people are not reasoning or logical. They want what they want, when they want it.
Tuckmaster85: If I made the decision I'll take the blame, and if they just screwed up then I'll listen to the shit that I get, and then just send it right on downhill.
TuckinJax: I wish it worked that way...
Tuckmaster85: Every leadership sort of situation I've been in has worked that way. And the only people I've ever led is a bunch of high school fuck ups and some 35 year old crack heads that are ex high school fuck ups.
TuckinJax: well, I've been around a little longer than you have and have a little more experience at leadership than you do... Just a little...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: yeah
Tuckmaster85: but it seems like military guys would fuck up less that crack heads and high school dropouts.
Tuckmaster85: lol
TuckinJax: most of the time, it wasn't the troops that I had problems with. It was the upper management/leadership.
TuckinJax: My troops weren't the best or the brightest. I was in charge of the "B" team. But if I gave them instructions, they did their best to carry them out.
Tuckmaster85: Thats really all you can ask
TuckinJax: The leadership, however, was a bunch of misogenistic (sp?) morons that had to be carried by their SrNCOs. I got burned very badly my last outing because they didn't know what they were doing.
TuckinJax: Since then, I've done my damnest to avoid being in charge of anything. But I always end up with the responsibility because I seem to be the only one who can think his way out of a wet paper sack.
TuckinJax: Carol tells me that I have a "leadership quality" that makes people want me to take charge. But I don't want the responsibility.
Tuckmaster85: But if you can do it best isn't it your responsibility to the evolution of the species to carry on?
Tuckmaster85: like if edison had said yeah I could make the lightbulb but I don't want to be the guy in charge of that.
Tuckmaster85: Or hitler
Tuckmaster85: or Patton
Tuckmaster85: And I'm not saying you're wrong, just challenging you with a slighty different perspective.
TuckinJax: Change the word "evolution" to "development" and I'll accept your analysis.
Tuckmaster85: lol
Tuckmaster85: ok
TuckinJax: I've got a little problem with that "evolution" thingie...
Tuckmaster85: I think that developement is evolution. But I can accept the darwin stigma that comes with it these days.
TuckinJax: I see your meaning.
TuckinJax: the strict Darwin interpretation is that animals adapt to their environment or in the case of humans, we adapt our environment to our needs.
TuckinJax: Development is a part of adaptation.
Tuckmaster85: yeah
Tuckmaster85: But I think we've just beat the natural evolution, cause we're smart enough to be lazy
Tuckmaster85: which is really what its all about.
TuckinJax: well, I'm pretty sure that what ever I do won't matter in the greater scheme of things.
Tuckmaster85: well I'm pretty sure of that too, but really, I don't think that anything anyone does will matter in the grand scheme of things, but then you have people like patton and einstein and mozart and gallileo
Tuckmaster85: they were nobodies, until they achieved their greatness.
Tuckmaster85: Like gallileo, he was totally bonkers, he tripped on mushrooms and looked at the sky all the time. But just because he was willing to accept a different perception of something people new to be true, he helped father a modern science.
TuckinJax: But their greatness wasn't recognized until after they were dead... Well, except for Einstein. And we're still trying to figure his stuff out.
TuckinJax: Galileo's discoveries weren't accepted until almost 300 years after he made them.
TuckinJax: And the old boy that they believed faked his own results.
TuckinJax: Keppler
Tuckmaster85: So what if its not in your lifetime
Tuckmaster85: ?
Tuckmaster85: Won't you still be working for the greater good
Tuckmaster85: these guys fought for what they believed in against some crazy oposition.
Tuckmaster85: and they were right
Tuckmaster85: just because they did what they were good at.
Tuckmaster85: and we're all better for it.
TuckinJax: well, except for that Hitler fella...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: lol
Tuckmaster85: Well
Tuckmaster85: I think that some of what he did was wrong, but I still think he was a great leader and much before his time as far as manipulating the masses goes.
TuckinJax: Hitler's greatest strength was that he believed in what he taught. His greatest weakness was that the basis of his belief was a lie.
Tuckmaster85: I would rather be passionate and wrong then not passionate about anything at all.
Tuckmaster85: Which, I pretty much am. I find it hard to find things that I would be passionate about.
Tuckmaster85: But hitler is a great example of what passion can do
Tuckmaster85: He damn near conquered the world
Tuckmaster85: all on a false conception he created in his mind.
TuckinJax: yeah, but that's an example of how passion can make mistakes.
TuckinJax: If he'd fought on one front instead of two, he would've conquered the world.
TuckinJax: If he had listened to his generals, he would've won.
Tuckmaster85: If you don't take risks, nothing will ever change.
TuckinJax: but letting your passion take over for the facts is a recipe for disaster.
TuckinJax: At the beginning of WW2, Hitler had a deal with Stalin. Hitler could have Poland if he left Stalin alone.
TuckinJax: He was well on his way to conquering the world when he decided to ignore the agreement and attacked Russia. Against the advice of his generals.
Tuckmaster85: You should never let passion take over
TuckinJax: that's what I'm saying.
Tuckmaster85: But you have to have it to be motivated to make anything happen at all
Tuckmaster85: and you have to accept that there will always be risks, and there will always inevitably be a downfall. There will always be something better, stronger, smarter, and the only way you can delay that as long as possible is to continuously surround yourself with knowledge and experience and perspective,
TuckinJax: right. which is where Hitler failed. He started to believe his own infallibility.
Tuckmaster85: Yeah, pride, pride has to be one of humanities biggest downfalls
Tuckmaster85: pride and greed
Tuckmaster85: if it weren't for those, communism would work and we could live in a eutopia.
Tuckmaster85: One world nation
Tuckmaster85: But pride and greed are good to an extent, up to that point they are never really refered to as pride and greed, but you need some self-preservation and you have to have some things that are just yours, to be individual
Tuckmaster85: I don't think its the most efficient way to do things at all, but I think that it is inherently inbedded with our cognative abilities, to be just that, cognative and unique.
TuckinJax: humans are competitive by nature. That's why communism will never work.
TuckinJax: Most communes have failed because of human tendencies.
Tuckmaster85: but competition is inherently greed and pride, greed for the prize or pride to be able to say you are the best. If we didn't have those things I think it'd work, but I also don't think we'd be human
Tuckmaster85: more like ants
TuckinJax: So it's a flaw that humans have to have to be human and to survive.
Tuckmaster85: Well I think that we are flawed is the reason we survive
Tuckmaster85: I think that our inherent flaw is what gives us the motivation to better ourselves, and to understand more, and create technology to compensate for our own shortcomings.
Tuckmaster85: If we were perfect, we would never change
Tuckmaster85: and if we never changed what would be the point
TuckinJax: you know what the biological response is to why we're here, right?
Tuckmaster85: procreate?
TuckinJax: yup.
Tuckmaster85: well thats simply not good enough for me
TuckinJax: the purpose of life is the continuation of the species.
Tuckmaster85: If it were just about that, then why do I have the potential to be so much more?
Tuckmaster85: Why should we just continue when we can make it better
Tuckmaster85: ?
TuckinJax: Why should we try to make it better when it's pretty good right now?
Tuckmaster85: because as far as we knew, it was pretty good when we figured out how to make fire in caves
TuckinJax: I'm sorta playing devil's advocate here.
Tuckmaster85: Fine by me
Tuckmaster85: I love being challenged
TuckinJax: But I have to admit that sometimes I wonder if we aren't pushing too far, too fast.
Tuckmaster85: Well I feel the same way, to a point, but really, how can we be too good? Like the only things that can go bad are when we start playing with things that an oops has planetary consequences, and I'd hope that somewhere there are people smart enough to decide we should test things like that on the moon,
TuckinJax: I'm talking about the human condition. Our society is so "push, push, push" and "more, more, more" that I wonder what we're gaining from it.
TuckinJax: Stress related illness is at a higher level than it's ever been.
TuckinJax: Work loads get larger and larger and the pay gets lower and lower.
TuckinJax: "more with less" is the motto now.
Tuckmaster85: So we need to stop procreating
Tuckmaster85: Procreation is a factor when we need masses to survive.
Tuckmaster85: but as a society we should counteract our efficency with fewer 'workers'
Tuckmaster85: China has been doing it for years
Tuckmaster85: and sure you can argue that government control is bad, but people as a whole are too stupid not to shoot themselves in the foot
Tuckmaster85: People will always have the instictual need for makin babies, and unless they are smarter than their nature they're gonna keep right on makin babies until someone makes them stop
TuckinJax: So you're saying the government should take control of our procreation activities?
Tuckmaster85: Nope
TuckinJax: That's a scary thought...
TuckinJax: Then whose going to control it?
Tuckmaster85: Well yes I guess I am
Tuckmaster85: But not sex
Tuckmaster85: just procreation
Tuckmaster85: actual reproduction
TuckinJax: That's a scary thought...
Tuckmaster85: Fertility should be something checked at your six month physical
TuckinJax: so you want them to monitor your activities until you get fixed?
Tuckmaster85: I want them to monitor how many children I have until I reach the cap and then fix me
Tuckmaster85: yes
Tuckmaster85: I think it would be good for the species
TuckinJax: But what about my rights as a person?
Tuckmaster85: Do you really feel the need to protect your right to be impovished, hungry, and dealing with over population?
TuckinJax: I feel the need to protect my right as an individual.
TuckinJax: I think that in the name of "security" we've already lost far too many of our individual freedoms.
TuckinJax: I don't think it's anybody's business whether I wear a seatbelt or not.
TuckinJax: If I want to ride without a helmet, it's my business.
TuckinJax: If I want to make moonshine in my garage, that's my business.
Tuckmaster85: But it is someone's business how many more mouths you are making to feed, and how many jobs you are going to need alocated to your offspring, and how much money you are going to need to make those things happen wether it be by taking up extra jobs yourself, doing a higher paying job, or getting money from the government. You can't just make wealth, so you're taking it from somebody
Tuckmaster85: Wearing a seatbelt can only hurt you
TuckinJax: But it's a loss of my freedom of choice.
Tuckmaster85: blowing up your still or drinking yourself into a coma, will only hurt you or people stupid enough to be involved
Tuckmaster85: But why is your choice more important than someone else's
TuckinJax: it's not. everyone has the right to make their own decisions.
Tuckmaster85: Then I have the right to kill someone
Tuckmaster85: thats my decision
TuckinJax: no because that's interfering with someone else's life.
Tuckmaster85: So is you making more babies and taking more jobs and food
Tuckmaster85: The more bodies there are the thinner things have to be spread
TuckinJax: I don't believe the government is the right group to manage the birthrate is all I'm saying.
Tuckmaster85: I don't think it is either.
Tuckmaster85: But I think its the only group that can
TuckinJax: What you're talking about is a form of social engineering that only a dictatorship or oligarchy could pull off.
TuckinJax: And it could only happen on an extremely small scale because to manage it otherwise would be a nightmare.
Tuckmaster85: Well our choices are, Birth control, a technological decline, or a mass genocide of some form
Tuckmaster85: Personally, I'd like to keep all of my technological conveniences and war and murder are just generally frowned upon, like nobody likes that hitler character
Tuckmaster85: I don't think that there is anything wrong with one child per person, couples would have two children, and its not like you'd kill off triplets or anything.
Tuckmaster85: And there could be permits for more, and they don't have to be that hard to get, nothing more complex than adoption per say
Tuckmaster85: I'm prolly gonna get fixed within a month of turning 21
TuckinJax: but theres more to this that you're looking at. The only way to control actual world growth would be to change every countries birthrate.
TuckinJax: In America, it's not the]
Tuckmaster85: So why can't we change every countries birthrate?
TuckinJax: how do you propose to do that?
Tuckmaster85: War
TuckinJax: oh, yeah, right. That'll work. Let's just forget about that whole democracy thing...
Tuckmaster85: And if the war is bad enough, by the time we have our world nation we won't need to be as hardcore about it.
Tuckmaster85: Democracy doesn't work
Tuckmaster85: The people are too stupid to lead themselves
TuckinJax: what would you replace it with?
Tuckmaster85: Republics aren't bad. Flawed as anything else, but only by human nature
TuckinJax: You know that the US, by the strictest definition of the word, is a Republic, right?
Tuckmaster85: There needs to be a small enough group that decisions are made by a resposible, intelligent group but large enough that there is a good sampling of the masses
Tuckmaster85: We still get to vote.
Tuckmaster85: We don't need to vote
Tuckmaster85: On laws and policies and wars
Tuckmaster85: or on the president
TuckinJax: so you want an oligarchy.
Tuckmaster85: We should vote in or at least nominate those that represent us, but once they are in then thats that
Tuckmaster85: The people's voice should stop at who they want to be their voice.
Tuckmaster85: And it would have to be for like 30 year terms
TuckinJax: so you would trust someone else with your total well-being?
Tuckmaster85: Well we aren't talking when to shit sorts of decisions here, I'm talking good of the country sorts of things, and yes
Tuckmaster85: if they could do it better, then by god they should
TuckinJax: but you're taking a chance of that happening.
Tuckmaster85: Then just like every other time in history that it has happened there will be a revolution
TuckinJax: You're kinda quick to jump on that "war" bandwagon.
Tuckmaster85: And overthrowing a government shouldn't necisarily mean a change in government, just new leadership.
Tuckmaster85: Perhaps, but I think war is part of what we need to survive as a species.
Tuckmaster85: our own little natural selection
Tuckmaster85: and the winners write the history books, so who's to say it was wrong.
Tuckmaster85: The strong have to clean out the weak in order to stay strong.
Tuckmaster85: Like weeding a garden
TuckinJax: well, if that's the case, you shouldn't be here...
Tuckmaster85: Then society has wronged me
Tuckmaster85: and I am wronging society
TuckinJax: so self preservation means nothing to you?
Tuckmaster85: not if it means sacrificing the good of the whole.
TuckinJax: I don't buy it.
Tuckmaster85: If I am beaten then I will be beaten and that will be that.
Tuckmaster85: If I am truely just a waste of space time and energy, then not only am I wasting everyone else's time but my own as well.
Tuckmaster85: If I truely can't be better or grow anymore then its simply time to be dead.
TuckinJax: I don't believe society would be as successful if everything were controlled like you're talking about. If everything were planned, there would be no adversity to overcome. Adversity is what makes us creative.
TuckinJax: And we would be as stagnant as you don't want us to.
Tuckmaster85: Not if the people making the rules were making change
Tuckmaster85: thats why there has to be more than one of them.
Tuckmaster85: And there will always be an unhappy person
Tuckmaster85: that is the person that makes things happen
TuckinJax: we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Tuckmaster85: Fair enough
TuckinJax: I'm too much of an individualist to want the government, any government to be involved in my life.
Tuckmaster85: It has been a very stimulating and worthwhile debate either way. And I also don't believe in some of these things to the point that I've argued them, but I think that there is inherent truth in all of it.
Tuckmaster85: But if everyone were like you, then nothing would ever get done, it would all be about 'me' and me is never good for too many other people.
TuckinJax: part of the problem with today's society is that we've let the government tell us how we should live and what we should believe instead of thinking for ourselves. There are too many idiots out there that the government protects...
TuckinJax: I didn't say that.
Tuckmaster85: No you didn't
Tuckmaster85: But you did say it was inherently human to be greedy and prideful, so without any restriction on that the majority of people would go with there instict and the world would be way shitty
TuckinJax: But I also believe that you can't legislate people to be what you want them to be.
TuckinJax: That's the problem with our government today.
TuckinJax: they try to tell us what we can do and what we can't do.
Tuckmaster85: But we can't tell ourselves
Tuckmaster85: and maybe you can
Tuckmaster85: maybe I can
Tuckmaster85: Maybe joe smo can
Tuckmaster85: but what about the murray's
Tuckmaster85: If there weren't laws would you want them in the same state even?
Tuckmaster85: Theres an awful lot of people like that out there man.
TuckinJax: I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws. That's anarchy.
TuckinJax: and you're just looking for trouble with that.
TuckinJax: But I think that there should be limits on the types of laws that the federal and state government should be able to impose.
Tuckmaster85: But where do you define the limits
TuckinJax: Personal freedom.
Tuckmaster85: Should you define them by the abilities of the people most capable of being free or the people who actually need to have those decisions made
TuckinJax: I know you don't want any kids, but consider this for a minute.
Tuckmaster85: for them
Tuckmaster85: And thats not truew
Tuckmaster85: I want at least one child
TuckinJax: Do you want someone to tell you how to raise kids?
Tuckmaster85: nope, thats why I still haven't decided if I'm going to want to keep the mother.
TuckinJax: okay. well, the government now has the ability to take away your children if they don't like the way you raise your kids.
Tuckmaster85: but their rules are pretty good
Tuckmaster85: As long as you feed them, send them to school, and don't beat them you're pretty set
TuckinJax: All your child as to say is "my daddy abuses me" and your butt is in jail and the kid is in foster care.
Tuckmaster85: well its not quite that easy, but yeah.
Tuckmaster85: So I guess it would be in your best interest to ensure a good relationship with your child huh?
TuckinJax: actually, it's just that easy. It happened to a friend of mine a couple of months ago.
Tuckmaster85: I can be ok with that kind of challenge
TuckinJax: no, it's not. It's none of the government's business how I raise my child.
Tuckmaster85: You aren't talking about doug are you?
TuckinJax: yeah, I am.
Tuckmaster85: The kid is retarded and had a big mark on his head. I'm gonna have to classify that as a glitch in the system rather than any sort of standard to base a decision on
Tuckmaster85: Thats completely a special case
Tuckmaster85: And you aren't going to find a system that works for everyone, people are just too dynamic.
Tuckmaster85: you just have to define a happy medium.
TuckinJax: so the government should tell me how to raise my kids?
Tuckmaster85: The government should tell you not to beat your kids
TuckinJax: so I shouldn't spank them>?
Tuckmaster85: No, you shouldn't beat them
Tuckmaster85: No one takes kids away for spankings
TuckinJax: actually, they have.
Tuckmaster85: cause if you do it right then there are no marks.
Tuckmaster85: and you don't do it in public
TuckinJax: I gotta go to the shop. Bob owes me an estimate...
Tuckmaster85: Alrighty
Tuckmaster85: I enjoyed the conversation, we should do it again sometime,
TuckinJax: yeah. I don't think we'll ever change each other's minds...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: I doubt it, but I think thats ok.
Tuckmaster85: Did carol tell you I stopped by last night?
TuckinJax: yeah. you want to do lunch some time this week?
TuckinJax: I'm open today, Wednesday, and Friday.
TuckinJax: tomorrow I have a lunch to finalize a bid, and thursday, I have to take Carolyn out to lunch.
Tuckmaster85: Lunch is fine, or dinner whichever you'd prefer, I'll have more lunch days available that dinner, but more time for dinner and probably nicer.
TuckinJax: it's up to you. Nothing tomorrow, though. It's really booked tight.
Tuckmaster85: alright
TuckinJax: I'm booked from 8 am until after 7 pm tomorrow.
Tuckmaster85: Well where would you like to go? Its a father's day dinner since I may not actually see you on father's day.
TuckinJax: you're going to miss the family reunion?
Tuckmaster85: If I can help it
Tuckmaster85: None of the people I would want to see are gonna be here anyway
TuckinJax: how do you know that?
Tuckmaster85: and the entire time I was there I'd be standing off to the side talking to you anyway.
Tuckmaster85: The uncle kent family isn't coming
TuckinJax: so you'll bail on me? gee, thanks. nice to know that I mean that much to you...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: and the only other people that I'd want to see is tommy and his family, but I see them a lot, and things seem to be getting weird with uncle tommy, I'm not as comfortable with him as I used to be,
Tuckmaster85: Well you are welcome to come with me
TuckinJax: sorry. I have an obligation.
Tuckmaster85: Well I offered,
TuckinJax: yeah, that's one big difference between us.
Tuckmaster85: And this past weekend was just about enough family for me.
Tuckmaster85: Whats that?
TuckinJax: while I don't always agree with my family and they frustrate the dickens out of me at times, I will go to the family stuff out of obligation.
Tuckmaster85: I will only do that if I think I'll actually contribute something.
Tuckmaster85: I have never been an important part of a tucker family reunion it will go just as well without me, except I won't be there to talk to the other people that don't want to be there
TuckinJax: Like I said, it's a difference between you and I.
Tuckmaster85: And I just lost about three hundred and fifty bucks helping sandy moved, and I missed bonnaroo
Tuckmaster85: to which I already had the $150 ticket
TuckinJax: okay.
Tuckmaster85: If I'm needed family comes first.
Tuckmaster85: but I won't help you guys any
Tuckmaster85: I'll be unhappy.
TuckinJax: Look, I'm not asking you to justify yourself. If you don't want to be there, then don't be there. I was just pointing out a difference between the two of us. Everyone is always telling me how much we're alike (something that I don't really see), but in this one thing, we're very different.
Tuckmaster85: lol
Tuckmaster85: Sorry if that sounded defensive or something, I'm having a rough morning, I didn't mean to come off that way, I'm just talking.
TuckinJax: okay. I just didn't want you to think I was trying to talk you into something.
Tuckmaster85: I know.
TuckinJax: oaky.
Tuckmaster85: Thats definately one of the biggest things I apriciate about talking to you, you very rarely try to talk me into something, you just talk.
Tuckmaster85: I can't think of any instance in the last year at least that you've tried to talk me into something,
TuckinJax: I don't know that I've ever tried to talk you into anything. I give you what I would like, I give you my reasons for it, and then I let you decide.
Tuckmaster85: That is an area in which we are very similar.
TuckinJax: to be honest, I don't want the stress of making decisions for anybody else.
Tuckmaster85: Well thats something we are different in, I'd rather make someone else's decisions than my own.
TuckinJax: you've never been in charge of 60 people who didn't want to be where you were.
Tuckmaster85: I'm confident in my ability, when completely emotionally uninvolved, to make the right decision. I only have a hard time making my own decisions because I let my emotions get in the way
TuckinJax: I'm a good leader. I've had enough practice at it. But my problem is that good leaders end up dealing with other people's mistakes.
TuckinJax: and people are not reasoning or logical. They want what they want, when they want it.
Tuckmaster85: If I made the decision I'll take the blame, and if they just screwed up then I'll listen to the shit that I get, and then just send it right on downhill.
TuckinJax: I wish it worked that way...
Tuckmaster85: Every leadership sort of situation I've been in has worked that way. And the only people I've ever led is a bunch of high school fuck ups and some 35 year old crack heads that are ex high school fuck ups.
TuckinJax: well, I've been around a little longer than you have and have a little more experience at leadership than you do... Just a little...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: yeah
Tuckmaster85: but it seems like military guys would fuck up less that crack heads and high school dropouts.
Tuckmaster85: lol
TuckinJax: most of the time, it wasn't the troops that I had problems with. It was the upper management/leadership.
TuckinJax: My troops weren't the best or the brightest. I was in charge of the "B" team. But if I gave them instructions, they did their best to carry them out.
Tuckmaster85: Thats really all you can ask
TuckinJax: The leadership, however, was a bunch of misogenistic (sp?) morons that had to be carried by their SrNCOs. I got burned very badly my last outing because they didn't know what they were doing.
TuckinJax: Since then, I've done my damnest to avoid being in charge of anything. But I always end up with the responsibility because I seem to be the only one who can think his way out of a wet paper sack.
TuckinJax: Carol tells me that I have a "leadership quality" that makes people want me to take charge. But I don't want the responsibility.
Tuckmaster85: But if you can do it best isn't it your responsibility to the evolution of the species to carry on?
Tuckmaster85: like if edison had said yeah I could make the lightbulb but I don't want to be the guy in charge of that.
Tuckmaster85: Or hitler
Tuckmaster85: or Patton
Tuckmaster85: And I'm not saying you're wrong, just challenging you with a slighty different perspective.
TuckinJax: Change the word "evolution" to "development" and I'll accept your analysis.
Tuckmaster85: lol
Tuckmaster85: ok
TuckinJax: I've got a little problem with that "evolution" thingie...
Tuckmaster85: I think that developement is evolution. But I can accept the darwin stigma that comes with it these days.
TuckinJax: I see your meaning.
TuckinJax: the strict Darwin interpretation is that animals adapt to their environment or in the case of humans, we adapt our environment to our needs.
TuckinJax: Development is a part of adaptation.
Tuckmaster85: yeah
Tuckmaster85: But I think we've just beat the natural evolution, cause we're smart enough to be lazy
Tuckmaster85: which is really what its all about.
TuckinJax: well, I'm pretty sure that what ever I do won't matter in the greater scheme of things.
Tuckmaster85: well I'm pretty sure of that too, but really, I don't think that anything anyone does will matter in the grand scheme of things, but then you have people like patton and einstein and mozart and gallileo
Tuckmaster85: they were nobodies, until they achieved their greatness.
Tuckmaster85: Like gallileo, he was totally bonkers, he tripped on mushrooms and looked at the sky all the time. But just because he was willing to accept a different perception of something people new to be true, he helped father a modern science.
TuckinJax: But their greatness wasn't recognized until after they were dead... Well, except for Einstein. And we're still trying to figure his stuff out.
TuckinJax: Galileo's discoveries weren't accepted until almost 300 years after he made them.
TuckinJax: And the old boy that they believed faked his own results.
TuckinJax: Keppler
Tuckmaster85: So what if its not in your lifetime
Tuckmaster85: ?
Tuckmaster85: Won't you still be working for the greater good
Tuckmaster85: these guys fought for what they believed in against some crazy oposition.
Tuckmaster85: and they were right
Tuckmaster85: just because they did what they were good at.
Tuckmaster85: and we're all better for it.
TuckinJax: well, except for that Hitler fella...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: lol
Tuckmaster85: Well
Tuckmaster85: I think that some of what he did was wrong, but I still think he was a great leader and much before his time as far as manipulating the masses goes.
TuckinJax: Hitler's greatest strength was that he believed in what he taught. His greatest weakness was that the basis of his belief was a lie.
Tuckmaster85: I would rather be passionate and wrong then not passionate about anything at all.
Tuckmaster85: Which, I pretty much am. I find it hard to find things that I would be passionate about.
Tuckmaster85: But hitler is a great example of what passion can do
Tuckmaster85: He damn near conquered the world
Tuckmaster85: all on a false conception he created in his mind.
TuckinJax: yeah, but that's an example of how passion can make mistakes.
TuckinJax: If he'd fought on one front instead of two, he would've conquered the world.
TuckinJax: If he had listened to his generals, he would've won.
Tuckmaster85: If you don't take risks, nothing will ever change.
TuckinJax: but letting your passion take over for the facts is a recipe for disaster.
TuckinJax: At the beginning of WW2, Hitler had a deal with Stalin. Hitler could have Poland if he left Stalin alone.
TuckinJax: He was well on his way to conquering the world when he decided to ignore the agreement and attacked Russia. Against the advice of his generals.
Tuckmaster85: You should never let passion take over
TuckinJax: that's what I'm saying.
Tuckmaster85: But you have to have it to be motivated to make anything happen at all
Tuckmaster85: and you have to accept that there will always be risks, and there will always inevitably be a downfall. There will always be something better, stronger, smarter, and the only way you can delay that as long as possible is to continuously surround yourself with knowledge and experience and perspective,
TuckinJax: right. which is where Hitler failed. He started to believe his own infallibility.
Tuckmaster85: Yeah, pride, pride has to be one of humanities biggest downfalls
Tuckmaster85: pride and greed
Tuckmaster85: if it weren't for those, communism would work and we could live in a eutopia.
Tuckmaster85: One world nation
Tuckmaster85: But pride and greed are good to an extent, up to that point they are never really refered to as pride and greed, but you need some self-preservation and you have to have some things that are just yours, to be individual
Tuckmaster85: I don't think its the most efficient way to do things at all, but I think that it is inherently inbedded with our cognative abilities, to be just that, cognative and unique.
TuckinJax: humans are competitive by nature. That's why communism will never work.
TuckinJax: Most communes have failed because of human tendencies.
Tuckmaster85: but competition is inherently greed and pride, greed for the prize or pride to be able to say you are the best. If we didn't have those things I think it'd work, but I also don't think we'd be human
Tuckmaster85: more like ants
TuckinJax: So it's a flaw that humans have to have to be human and to survive.
Tuckmaster85: Well I think that we are flawed is the reason we survive
Tuckmaster85: I think that our inherent flaw is what gives us the motivation to better ourselves, and to understand more, and create technology to compensate for our own shortcomings.
Tuckmaster85: If we were perfect, we would never change
Tuckmaster85: and if we never changed what would be the point
TuckinJax: you know what the biological response is to why we're here, right?
Tuckmaster85: procreate?
TuckinJax: yup.
Tuckmaster85: well thats simply not good enough for me
TuckinJax: the purpose of life is the continuation of the species.
Tuckmaster85: If it were just about that, then why do I have the potential to be so much more?
Tuckmaster85: Why should we just continue when we can make it better
Tuckmaster85: ?
TuckinJax: Why should we try to make it better when it's pretty good right now?
Tuckmaster85: because as far as we knew, it was pretty good when we figured out how to make fire in caves
TuckinJax: I'm sorta playing devil's advocate here.
Tuckmaster85: Fine by me
Tuckmaster85: I love being challenged
TuckinJax: But I have to admit that sometimes I wonder if we aren't pushing too far, too fast.
Tuckmaster85: Well I feel the same way, to a point, but really, how can we be too good? Like the only things that can go bad are when we start playing with things that an oops has planetary consequences, and I'd hope that somewhere there are people smart enough to decide we should test things like that on the moon,
TuckinJax: I'm talking about the human condition. Our society is so "push, push, push" and "more, more, more" that I wonder what we're gaining from it.
TuckinJax: Stress related illness is at a higher level than it's ever been.
TuckinJax: Work loads get larger and larger and the pay gets lower and lower.
TuckinJax: "more with less" is the motto now.
Tuckmaster85: So we need to stop procreating
Tuckmaster85: Procreation is a factor when we need masses to survive.
Tuckmaster85: but as a society we should counteract our efficency with fewer 'workers'
Tuckmaster85: China has been doing it for years
Tuckmaster85: and sure you can argue that government control is bad, but people as a whole are too stupid not to shoot themselves in the foot
Tuckmaster85: People will always have the instictual need for makin babies, and unless they are smarter than their nature they're gonna keep right on makin babies until someone makes them stop
TuckinJax: So you're saying the government should take control of our procreation activities?
Tuckmaster85: Nope
TuckinJax: That's a scary thought...
TuckinJax: Then whose going to control it?
Tuckmaster85: Well yes I guess I am
Tuckmaster85: But not sex
Tuckmaster85: just procreation
Tuckmaster85: actual reproduction
TuckinJax: That's a scary thought...
Tuckmaster85: Fertility should be something checked at your six month physical
TuckinJax: so you want them to monitor your activities until you get fixed?
Tuckmaster85: I want them to monitor how many children I have until I reach the cap and then fix me
Tuckmaster85: yes
Tuckmaster85: I think it would be good for the species
TuckinJax: But what about my rights as a person?
Tuckmaster85: Do you really feel the need to protect your right to be impovished, hungry, and dealing with over population?
TuckinJax: I feel the need to protect my right as an individual.
TuckinJax: I think that in the name of "security" we've already lost far too many of our individual freedoms.
TuckinJax: I don't think it's anybody's business whether I wear a seatbelt or not.
TuckinJax: If I want to ride without a helmet, it's my business.
TuckinJax: If I want to make moonshine in my garage, that's my business.
Tuckmaster85: But it is someone's business how many more mouths you are making to feed, and how many jobs you are going to need alocated to your offspring, and how much money you are going to need to make those things happen wether it be by taking up extra jobs yourself, doing a higher paying job, or getting money from the government. You can't just make wealth, so you're taking it from somebody
Tuckmaster85: Wearing a seatbelt can only hurt you
TuckinJax: But it's a loss of my freedom of choice.
Tuckmaster85: blowing up your still or drinking yourself into a coma, will only hurt you or people stupid enough to be involved
Tuckmaster85: But why is your choice more important than someone else's
TuckinJax: it's not. everyone has the right to make their own decisions.
Tuckmaster85: Then I have the right to kill someone
Tuckmaster85: thats my decision
TuckinJax: no because that's interfering with someone else's life.
Tuckmaster85: So is you making more babies and taking more jobs and food
Tuckmaster85: The more bodies there are the thinner things have to be spread
TuckinJax: I don't believe the government is the right group to manage the birthrate is all I'm saying.
Tuckmaster85: I don't think it is either.
Tuckmaster85: But I think its the only group that can
TuckinJax: What you're talking about is a form of social engineering that only a dictatorship or oligarchy could pull off.
TuckinJax: And it could only happen on an extremely small scale because to manage it otherwise would be a nightmare.
Tuckmaster85: Well our choices are, Birth control, a technological decline, or a mass genocide of some form
Tuckmaster85: Personally, I'd like to keep all of my technological conveniences and war and murder are just generally frowned upon, like nobody likes that hitler character
Tuckmaster85: I don't think that there is anything wrong with one child per person, couples would have two children, and its not like you'd kill off triplets or anything.
Tuckmaster85: And there could be permits for more, and they don't have to be that hard to get, nothing more complex than adoption per say
Tuckmaster85: I'm prolly gonna get fixed within a month of turning 21
TuckinJax: but theres more to this that you're looking at. The only way to control actual world growth would be to change every countries birthrate.
TuckinJax: In America, it's not the]
Tuckmaster85: So why can't we change every countries birthrate?
TuckinJax: how do you propose to do that?
Tuckmaster85: War
TuckinJax: oh, yeah, right. That'll work. Let's just forget about that whole democracy thing...
Tuckmaster85: And if the war is bad enough, by the time we have our world nation we won't need to be as hardcore about it.
Tuckmaster85: Democracy doesn't work
Tuckmaster85: The people are too stupid to lead themselves
TuckinJax: what would you replace it with?
Tuckmaster85: Republics aren't bad. Flawed as anything else, but only by human nature
TuckinJax: You know that the US, by the strictest definition of the word, is a Republic, right?
Tuckmaster85: There needs to be a small enough group that decisions are made by a resposible, intelligent group but large enough that there is a good sampling of the masses
Tuckmaster85: We still get to vote.
Tuckmaster85: We don't need to vote
Tuckmaster85: On laws and policies and wars
Tuckmaster85: or on the president
TuckinJax: so you want an oligarchy.
Tuckmaster85: We should vote in or at least nominate those that represent us, but once they are in then thats that
Tuckmaster85: The people's voice should stop at who they want to be their voice.
Tuckmaster85: And it would have to be for like 30 year terms
TuckinJax: so you would trust someone else with your total well-being?
Tuckmaster85: Well we aren't talking when to shit sorts of decisions here, I'm talking good of the country sorts of things, and yes
Tuckmaster85: if they could do it better, then by god they should
TuckinJax: but you're taking a chance of that happening.
Tuckmaster85: Then just like every other time in history that it has happened there will be a revolution
TuckinJax: You're kinda quick to jump on that "war" bandwagon.
Tuckmaster85: And overthrowing a government shouldn't necisarily mean a change in government, just new leadership.
Tuckmaster85: Perhaps, but I think war is part of what we need to survive as a species.
Tuckmaster85: our own little natural selection
Tuckmaster85: and the winners write the history books, so who's to say it was wrong.
Tuckmaster85: The strong have to clean out the weak in order to stay strong.
Tuckmaster85: Like weeding a garden
TuckinJax: well, if that's the case, you shouldn't be here...
Tuckmaster85: Then society has wronged me
Tuckmaster85: and I am wronging society
TuckinJax: so self preservation means nothing to you?
Tuckmaster85: not if it means sacrificing the good of the whole.
TuckinJax: I don't buy it.
Tuckmaster85: If I am beaten then I will be beaten and that will be that.
Tuckmaster85: If I am truely just a waste of space time and energy, then not only am I wasting everyone else's time but my own as well.
Tuckmaster85: If I truely can't be better or grow anymore then its simply time to be dead.
TuckinJax: I don't believe society would be as successful if everything were controlled like you're talking about. If everything were planned, there would be no adversity to overcome. Adversity is what makes us creative.
TuckinJax: And we would be as stagnant as you don't want us to.
Tuckmaster85: Not if the people making the rules were making change
Tuckmaster85: thats why there has to be more than one of them.
Tuckmaster85: And there will always be an unhappy person
Tuckmaster85: that is the person that makes things happen
TuckinJax: we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Tuckmaster85: Fair enough
TuckinJax: I'm too much of an individualist to want the government, any government to be involved in my life.
Tuckmaster85: It has been a very stimulating and worthwhile debate either way. And I also don't believe in some of these things to the point that I've argued them, but I think that there is inherent truth in all of it.
Tuckmaster85: But if everyone were like you, then nothing would ever get done, it would all be about 'me' and me is never good for too many other people.
TuckinJax: part of the problem with today's society is that we've let the government tell us how we should live and what we should believe instead of thinking for ourselves. There are too many idiots out there that the government protects...
TuckinJax: I didn't say that.
Tuckmaster85: No you didn't
Tuckmaster85: But you did say it was inherently human to be greedy and prideful, so without any restriction on that the majority of people would go with there instict and the world would be way shitty
TuckinJax: But I also believe that you can't legislate people to be what you want them to be.
TuckinJax: That's the problem with our government today.
TuckinJax: they try to tell us what we can do and what we can't do.
Tuckmaster85: But we can't tell ourselves
Tuckmaster85: and maybe you can
Tuckmaster85: maybe I can
Tuckmaster85: Maybe joe smo can
Tuckmaster85: but what about the murray's
Tuckmaster85: If there weren't laws would you want them in the same state even?
Tuckmaster85: Theres an awful lot of people like that out there man.
TuckinJax: I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws. That's anarchy.
TuckinJax: and you're just looking for trouble with that.
TuckinJax: But I think that there should be limits on the types of laws that the federal and state government should be able to impose.
Tuckmaster85: But where do you define the limits
TuckinJax: Personal freedom.
Tuckmaster85: Should you define them by the abilities of the people most capable of being free or the people who actually need to have those decisions made
TuckinJax: I know you don't want any kids, but consider this for a minute.
Tuckmaster85: for them
Tuckmaster85: And thats not truew
Tuckmaster85: I want at least one child
TuckinJax: Do you want someone to tell you how to raise kids?
Tuckmaster85: nope, thats why I still haven't decided if I'm going to want to keep the mother.
TuckinJax: okay. well, the government now has the ability to take away your children if they don't like the way you raise your kids.
Tuckmaster85: but their rules are pretty good
Tuckmaster85: As long as you feed them, send them to school, and don't beat them you're pretty set
TuckinJax: All your child as to say is "my daddy abuses me" and your butt is in jail and the kid is in foster care.
Tuckmaster85: well its not quite that easy, but yeah.
Tuckmaster85: So I guess it would be in your best interest to ensure a good relationship with your child huh?
TuckinJax: actually, it's just that easy. It happened to a friend of mine a couple of months ago.
Tuckmaster85: I can be ok with that kind of challenge
TuckinJax: no, it's not. It's none of the government's business how I raise my child.
Tuckmaster85: You aren't talking about doug are you?
TuckinJax: yeah, I am.
Tuckmaster85: The kid is retarded and had a big mark on his head. I'm gonna have to classify that as a glitch in the system rather than any sort of standard to base a decision on
Tuckmaster85: Thats completely a special case
Tuckmaster85: And you aren't going to find a system that works for everyone, people are just too dynamic.
Tuckmaster85: you just have to define a happy medium.
TuckinJax: so the government should tell me how to raise my kids?
Tuckmaster85: The government should tell you not to beat your kids
TuckinJax: so I shouldn't spank them>?
Tuckmaster85: No, you shouldn't beat them
Tuckmaster85: No one takes kids away for spankings
TuckinJax: actually, they have.
Tuckmaster85: cause if you do it right then there are no marks.
Tuckmaster85: and you don't do it in public
TuckinJax: I gotta go to the shop. Bob owes me an estimate...
Tuckmaster85: Alrighty
Tuckmaster85: I enjoyed the conversation, we should do it again sometime,
TuckinJax: yeah. I don't think we'll ever change each other's minds...
TuckinJax:
Tuckmaster85: I doubt it, but I think thats ok.