In Doomsday, on the beach, when Rose cries, "I love you", the Doctor says, "Quite right too. ...And I suppose... if it's my last chance to say it...Rose Tyler [I love you <- we'll just assume he was going to finish with that.]"
Meaning - First: maybe it's just me, but "Quite right too."?? would that be the first thing out of your mouth if your one true love just confessed her love to you? I mean, even "I know," would have been more emotional - "Quite right too" is something you say when someone says your best friend is brilliant. Second: Let's compare this scene with the Doctor's conversation with Sarah Jane in School Reunion. There, the two rehash the circumstances under which they were parted: Sarah Jane accuses that the Doctor "just left [her]" and "never even said goodbye". The Doctor says, basically, that he had to abandon her because he couldn't stand to see "someone [he] cared about, someone he..." (loved) "grow old" and die. The Doomsday scene seems to grow out of that conversation - knowing he'll never have another opportunity, the Doctor finally says "goodbye"...Rose confesses her love...since he'll never see her again, and having already broken down his emotional walls a bit through his conversation with Sarah Jane, the Doctor decides to finally finish the sentence, and tell Rose he loves her too.
In an of itself, all the Doomsday exchange says is that yes, the Doctor loved Rose. However, in light of the Doctor and Sarah Jane's confrontation over their botched farewell, the implication is that the Doctor and Rose are in a similar situation to the Doctor and Sarah Jane those years ago, and this time the Doctor means to get it right. The situation is similar because the emotions between the two are basically the same - the Doctor felt a similar love for both of them. Quite right, too.
If the Doctor was in "true love" with Rose, it was the same true love he's had for many of his Companions (in addition to Sarah Jane, Jo comes to mind - didn't the third Doc. try to keep her from leaving him for another man? And how about Leela - didn't the fourth Doc. pretend he was ok while they were saying "goodbye", then basically break down after she'd left?). The difference with Rose lay in the circumstances: the fact that he *knew* she was permanently lost to him, and the fact that he had begun clinging to her as a replacement for the lost Timelords, then lost her suddenly as well, were what resulted in the pining and grief.
Had their relationship progressed to its natural end (as the Doctor must have known it would have: when he promised the impossible in Doomsday by saying Rose could stay with him "forever", the fact that he does so suggests that he knows how very young she is, to need such a promise; and children invariably grow up, and move on), Rose would have left voluntarily, no longer under the impression that the Doctor was her "one true love" and only path to an exciting and enjoyable life; and the Doctor would have been better equipped to handle her departure, having had enough time to come to grips with the loss of Gallifrey, before losing the first and closest connection he'd had since (and knowing that, like with all his other companions, he might see her again someday - which is understandably important to him).
This theory gives RTD a lot of credit, and like I said - in addition to the episodes, various interviews from him, Freema, David, and others have contributed to my belief that that credit may be deserved, and that this theory may be correct (or close enough to it). However, only s4 and the continuation/conclusion of the Doctor-Rose arc can really validate or destroy it (or leave the whole issue frustratingly ambiguous). This is just one possible scenario, but it makes the most sense to me so far.
wow, um XD that was a lot to read. But that's alright, I love reading this kind of stuff, it's just that it's four in the morning, so bear with me.
Even if it's all true and this is all some elaborate three-season arc to finish out the Rose story, it is a horrible thing to have done to Martha.
My thoughts are bound to be a little fragmented here, apologies.
Here's the thing. At least if the Doctor was that much in love with Rose, it can justify (partially) his treatment of Martha. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt for having just lost the woman he loves. But if it turns out that it wasn't True Love, doesn't that just lower Martha even more? If it wasn't True Love with Rose, then there's no good reason for him to deny Martha, unless he really is a cold and clueless idiot.
Lol, it's 4 in the morning here too, but I had a nap :-).
Yes, you are making sense. However, let me say that even though I don't think he was in true love with Rose, I do think that losing her was more traumatic for him than with most of his previous companions, because: a) he lost her permanently (he keeps bringing that up once she's gone, and I think that's almost half of the trauma - I think he feels guilty about it, as well as a sense of loss), and b) losing Rose kind of seemed to be like losing Gallifrey all over again, on a smaller scale. When he first meets her, he kind of latches on to her, but it still takes him awhile (and meeting the Daleks, etc.) to begin to rely on/open up to her (I think the culmination of that opening up is when 9 regenerates into 10 - suddenly he's accepted her family, has kind of accepted Mickey, and is a lot happier in general). Once he's become comfortable with her, he starts to rely on their relationship as kind of a support system - (which leads to the incredible insularity the two of them displayed increasingly throughout s2). He clings to it (and her) while he begins to recover from the Time War. He's in the middle of that recovery, when suddenly, she is ripped away. And he collapses all over again.
His problems with Martha (even had her arc been better written and included more of, well, stuff that was important to her) stem I think from that trauma (causing him to be unable to psychologically let go of Rose); and also from the fact that having lost Rose, while he needs companionship and help recovering again, he is not prepared to go through that trauma a third time (unfortunately, the writing in s3 is shaky enough that this is not readily apparent -it might not even be a solid argument - but I think the way the Doctor's suddenly decides to drop Martha off in the Lazarus Experiment after seeing the Daleks again, even though he's already extended her "one trip" twice, then promptly returns to pick her up again, supports this idea). For these reasons, he can't quite bring himself to fully let her in. Maybe. Again, we'll see with their remaining episodes in s4, how further developments support or invalidate this idea...
Clueless? probably :-). Emotional train-wreck? who wouldn't be, I guess. Cold? I don't think so (not usually anyway)... but I may be proven wrong yet.
I didn't quite see 'Quite Right too' like that. I thought it was just the Doctor's natural self-regard. 'Of course she loves me,' thinks he, 'I'm brilliant.' :-D
actually no, that's not it. I *did* think the same thing - and that's kind of exactly my point. "of course you do" is a proper response (for some people) when you're talking about a deep mutual love - but not a *passionate*, *romantic* love - because it doesn't return any strong feeling at all. let me try to express what I mean another way; compare the following dialogues:
"I love you." "Quite right too"/"Of course you do." implied is either, I'm awesome, or I love you as well. either way the statement remains very matter of fact, very even keeled - and if he's saying "I love you as well", there's a lack of passion there that indicates it is not romantic love.
vs.
"I love you" "I know". note how no feeling is returned here either, but so little is said that something must not be being expressed - either returned passion (in which case later would come, "I love you" ) or the desire to avoid rejecting the professed love because it is *not* returned. But "I know" says so little that there simply has to be more to it, and the rest of the conversation (whenever it occurs) tells what. (in this case, since we know the doctor was going to say "I love you", had he said "I know" instead of quite right too, it might have been a strong indicator of restrained passion = romantic "one true" love.)
ooo, I've been really pondering this now. *sound of cogs whirring* I think your reading is interesting, but I do disagree, on balance.
I don't think Rose is a straight-forward 'one true love' in any exclusive sense, but I do think that Tennant's performance is perfectly in keeping with 'Quite right too' being of the same order as 'I know' in your very well expressed comment.
I tend to think the rules of engagement aren't quite the same when we're talking about the Doctor, in terms of the expressions and emotion involved. I suppose it's the little kink-in-the-bedsheet that allows us to have all these different viewpoints on the character.
I do think there was a romantic element to Rose/Ten. I don't think it was the primary element, but I do think it was there. Rose/Nine was much more paternal, and I think the contrast is probably what convinces me.
I think he was a git to Martha, and I ship them in my sleep now, just to get the bugger to actually treat her well. Anyway, must get back to my fic, while the muse is still dancing about on my tired brain.
I can see how someone might disagree with my interpretation. I agree with you that 9/Rose was much more paternal than 10/Rose. I even agree that there was a romantic element to the 10/Rose relationship. But I think that element was that Rose was in (puppy) love with 10 (after all, 10 looked and acted a lot younger than 9, who she had already kind of hero-worshipped), and 10 loved her very much (just not romantically) and therefore didn't want to disillusion her. I had to re-examine my ideas before I posted a response, though, and I can see how one might interpret the canon as you have done. Still waiting on the end of s4 for some sort of conclusive evidence (although there are, of course, no guarantees that we'll get any, lol). Thanks for your comment, and for making me think about it in more depth (again)!
Ok. This last reason may just be me. But:
In Doomsday, on the beach, when Rose cries, "I love you", the Doctor says, "Quite right too. ...And I suppose... if it's my last chance to say it...Rose Tyler [I love you <- we'll just assume he was going to finish with that.]"
Meaning -
First: maybe it's just me, but "Quite right too."?? would that be the first thing out of your mouth if your one true love just confessed her love to you? I mean, even "I know," would have been more emotional - "Quite right too" is something you say when someone says your best friend is brilliant.
Second: Let's compare this scene with the Doctor's conversation with Sarah Jane in School Reunion. There, the two rehash the circumstances under which they were parted: Sarah Jane accuses that the Doctor "just left [her]" and "never even said goodbye". The Doctor says, basically, that he had to abandon her because he couldn't stand to see "someone [he] cared about, someone he..." (loved) "grow old" and die. The Doomsday scene seems to grow out of that conversation - knowing he'll never have another opportunity, the Doctor finally says "goodbye"...Rose confesses her love...since he'll never see her again, and having already broken down his emotional walls a bit through his conversation with Sarah Jane, the Doctor decides to finally finish the sentence, and tell Rose he loves her too.
In an of itself, all the Doomsday exchange says is that yes, the Doctor loved Rose. However, in light of the Doctor and Sarah Jane's confrontation over their botched farewell, the implication is that the Doctor and Rose are in a similar situation to the Doctor and Sarah Jane those years ago, and this time the Doctor means to get it right. The situation is similar because the emotions between the two are basically the same - the Doctor felt a similar love for both of them. Quite right, too.
If the Doctor was in "true love" with Rose, it was the same true love he's had for many of his Companions (in addition to Sarah Jane, Jo comes to mind - didn't the third Doc. try to keep her from leaving him for another man? And how about Leela - didn't the fourth Doc. pretend he was ok while they were saying "goodbye", then basically break down after she'd left?). The difference with Rose lay in the circumstances: the fact that he *knew* she was permanently lost to him, and the fact that he had begun clinging to her as a replacement for the lost Timelords, then lost her suddenly as well, were what resulted in the pining and grief.
Had their relationship progressed to its natural end (as the Doctor must have known it would have: when he promised the impossible in Doomsday by saying Rose could stay with him "forever", the fact that he does so suggests that he knows how very young she is, to need such a promise; and children invariably grow up, and move on), Rose would have left voluntarily, no longer under the impression that the Doctor was her "one true love" and only path to an exciting and enjoyable life; and the Doctor would have been better equipped to handle her departure, having had enough time to come to grips with the loss of Gallifrey, before losing the first and closest connection he'd had since (and knowing that, like with all his other companions, he might see her again someday - which is understandably important to him).
This theory gives RTD a lot of credit, and like I said - in addition to the episodes, various interviews from him, Freema, David, and others have contributed to my belief that that credit may be deserved, and that this theory may be correct (or close enough to it). However, only s4 and the continuation/conclusion of the Doctor-Rose arc can really validate or destroy it (or leave the whole issue frustratingly ambiguous). This is just one possible scenario, but it makes the most sense to me so far.
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Even if it's all true and this is all some elaborate three-season arc to finish out the Rose story, it is a horrible thing to have done to Martha.
My thoughts are bound to be a little fragmented here, apologies.
Here's the thing. At least if the Doctor was that much in love with Rose, it can justify (partially) his treatment of Martha. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt for having just lost the woman he loves. But if it turns out that it wasn't True Love, doesn't that just lower Martha even more? If it wasn't True Love with Rose, then there's no good reason for him to deny Martha, unless he really is a cold and clueless idiot.
I'm really not making sense, am I? Blargh.
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Yes, you are making sense. However, let me say that even though I don't think he was in true love with Rose, I do think that losing her was more traumatic for him than with most of his previous companions, because:
a) he lost her permanently (he keeps bringing that up once she's gone, and I think that's almost half of the trauma - I think he feels guilty about it, as well as a sense of loss), and
b) losing Rose kind of seemed to be like losing Gallifrey all over again, on a smaller scale. When he first meets her, he kind of latches on to her, but it still takes him awhile (and meeting the Daleks, etc.) to begin to rely on/open up to her (I think the culmination of that opening up is when 9 regenerates into 10 - suddenly he's accepted her family, has kind of accepted Mickey, and is a lot happier in general). Once he's become comfortable with her, he starts to rely on their relationship as kind of a support system - (which leads to the incredible insularity the two of them displayed increasingly throughout s2). He clings to it (and her) while he begins to recover from the Time War. He's in the middle of that recovery, when suddenly, she is ripped away. And he collapses all over again.
His problems with Martha (even had her arc been better written and included more of, well, stuff that was important to her) stem I think from that trauma (causing him to be unable to psychologically let go of Rose); and also from the fact that having lost Rose, while he needs companionship and help recovering again, he is not prepared to go through that trauma a third time (unfortunately, the writing in s3 is shaky enough that this is not readily apparent -it might not even be a solid argument - but I think the way the Doctor's suddenly decides to drop Martha off in the Lazarus Experiment after seeing the Daleks again, even though he's already extended her "one trip" twice, then promptly returns to pick her up again, supports this idea). For these reasons, he can't quite bring himself to fully let her in. Maybe. Again, we'll see with their remaining episodes in s4, how further developments support or invalidate this idea...
Clueless? probably :-). Emotional train-wreck? who wouldn't be, I guess. Cold? I don't think so (not usually anyway)... but I may be proven wrong yet.
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"I love you."
"Quite right too"/"Of course you do." implied is either, I'm awesome, or I love you as well. either way the statement remains very matter of fact, very even keeled - and if he's saying "I love you as well", there's a lack of passion there that indicates it is not romantic love.
vs.
"I love you"
"I know". note how no feeling is returned here either, but so little is said that something must not be being expressed - either returned passion (in which case later would come, "I love you" ) or the desire to avoid rejecting the professed love because it is *not* returned. But "I know" says so little that there simply has to be more to it, and the rest of the conversation (whenever it occurs) tells what. (in this case, since we know the doctor was going to say "I love you", had he said "I know" instead of quite right too, it might have been a strong indicator of restrained passion = romantic "one true" love.)
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I don't think Rose is a straight-forward 'one true love' in any exclusive sense, but I do think that Tennant's performance is perfectly in keeping with 'Quite right too' being of the same order as 'I know' in your very well expressed comment.
I tend to think the rules of engagement aren't quite the same when we're talking about the Doctor, in terms of the expressions and emotion involved. I suppose it's the little kink-in-the-bedsheet that allows us to have all these different viewpoints on the character.
I do think there was a romantic element to Rose/Ten. I don't think it was the primary element, but I do think it was there. Rose/Nine was much more paternal, and I think the contrast is probably what convinces me.
I think he was a git to Martha, and I ship them in my sleep now, just to get the bugger to actually treat her well. Anyway, must get back to my fic, while the muse is still dancing about on my tired brain.
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