I'm totally green at this, you would think after modding another comm for like 4 years I would know how to do this by now- lies lies. Also pimping is encouraged *waves*.
I have been dying to respond to this comment since I woke up to it, but sadly, the last two days have been filled with craziness, but NOW. They are not and I can! I am possibly irrationally excited about this, but w/e w/e.
Oh! And yes, absolutely, we should be friends! We can have lots of meta discussions on Loki especially after the Avengers movie comes out.
Yay! I'm glad you weren't bothered by the the crazy ravings. BECAUSE YOU CAN TOTALLY GET A LOT FROM PEOPLE'S INTERACTIONS OKAY EVEN JUST THAT OKAY! I think the reason their actions are so strong and don't really need verbal expression is because they're so attuned to one another. It sounds strange because Thor is the Ideal and Loki is the - he reminds me of a Slytherin. It's like this Gryfinndor/Slytherin contrast to me. Loki is so different, so much more cloaked in shadow - even his appearance - but still the two of them *get* each other. I think that's what makes the dynamic of their relationship so interesting. Because even though they're opposite sides of the coin (lol look at me sneaking in all kinds of fandom references), they still understand each other, which actually shows you an interesting aspect of Thor's character because you immediately get the feeling that Loki is someone who can read people, but Thor really...isn't and so it's fascinating that he still seems to get his brother at the point in the movie. But of course, Thor is dense in so many ways and so he doesn't understand the intricacies, I think, of who Loki fully is if that makes sense. He understands Loki, but in a way, he doesn't. He just has so much blind faith in Loki and I really think that, in that moment, (and in THAT DAMN CUT SCENE!) you can see how much he really loves Loki. I just love that scene so much because there's so much characterization going on, but it's such a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment.
Oh god, Hitler's son is actually the first analogy I wanted to use, but then some people just stop reading because they think you're being overdramatic and so I didn't because I did not want you to handwave me away because this conversation is brilliant! But yeah. I really, really think that that's a really appropriate comparison.
And then everything else. I always wonder - and I may have mentioned this before - but I always wonder if Loki flashed back to that scene where Odin said they were both born to be kings. I wonder if that thought was in the jumble of what had to be Loki's thoughts at that point. And if he did, the implications are unnerving. A lot of people interpret it as Odin wanting to use Loki as a pawn. I see it as more of an, I guess it's sort of a reveal, but I don't really feel like Odin was played as so cruel as to want to use Loki as a bargaining chip. I feel more like it was an acknowledgement and maybe a subtle nod to the audience for later. I don't know, but I think it must be somehow significant and more than just as a father trying to tell his two sons that they're equal.
It just...all of it is so heartbreaking - watching Loki just spin out and he's all alone and resenting everyone - resenting his parents for doing this to him - Odin more than Frigga, I'm sure, and resenting Thor because it's essentially an affirmation that Thor has been perfect and the favored son all along because how could his parents love a monster? How could anyone? I mean, even his biological father didn't love him - he just cast him out. And these thoughts just consumed him. I mean, he's alone with all of this for days or weeks or however long and I can't imagine what effect that would have on someone's psyche.
I definitely got carried away again. I feel like there's so much more I could say about Loki.
I had so much more to say about this - and still do! - but the holidays happened and I died.
The Avengers movie is going to kill my soul. I just know it! How is Thor going to able to stand it? I swear, if they make Thor all ~rawr I am a manly man and will fight this villain I called brother for so many ages, I will die. My heart will never be whole again. (I also just found out about Thor 2! I am so excited afkajs!) I'm just hoping it's not a Jane/Thor lovefest. I genuinely dislike her as a character. I think it's probably because she's played by Natalie Portman who...I'm sorry, but I just can't stand her. She took what could have been an interesting character - someone smart and capable and a fucking physicist! - and, I don't know. It's hard to explain, but I felt like she completely undermined the character by making her into this teenage girl. She used this baby voice and played up this starry-eyed little girl crush and I'm like really? You have to split this character into little girl crush and serious physicist. You can't marry them together to make a whole character. Unpopular opinion, but I think she's an awful actress. Except for Black Swan, I'm consistently disappointed by her. All of my Natalie Portman/Jane Foster dissatisfaction aside, the thing that also legitimately infuriated me about that storyline was the way it was portrayed at the end. Suddenly, this woman that Thor knew for what? Three days? became more important than his own brother. I couldn't even wrap my mind around it. As has been thoroughly demonstrated onscreen, Thor and Loki loved each other however we each choose to interpret that love. I know what camp you and I are in, but even as a brother, how could this even be plausible? A brother! This brother that he loved for all his life and because of what Loki did? I'm sure it had been explained to him at that point in the movie what exactly transpired and while Thor probably didn't grasp the finer details, how could he not see that the one he called brother was in pain? He saw it when Loki let go and he was devastated as he was hanging from Odin's staff. I just don't see how he could be so grief-stricken over this woman and care so little for his brother. And I really mean that apart from my shipping my love for Loki as a character. How do you do that? How could you? Show practically no care for someone you'd spent your whole life loving. In case you couldn't tell, the ending bothered me a lot. It didn't make any sense to me especially after I saw the cut scenes. I still can't wrap my mind around it and I genuinely found it upsetting. Anyway. I'm going to come down from my soapbox now.
And I really marries nicely with Thor's unconditional love for Loki (which I completely agree with). The ending just doesn't sit right with me for exactly that reason. I really do think that Thor loves Loki without restrictions, with conditions - he just does. Loki is his and he is Loki's - again, however people read into that. I feel like that was evident even when Loki and Thor fought on the Bifrost. I didn't see Thor's actions as being motivated by true anger at Loki - it was more of a devastation and a sort of betrayal that he never saw coming. I don't think it ever occurred to Thor that Loki was capable of something like this and without him knowing what took place in his absence, I think that makes it even more devastating. I will never be able to see Thor's actions on that bridge as motivated by revenge. I only see it as him stopping what he truly believes is wrong and also an attempt to save Loki from himself no matter how Loki fought him. And you're right. Loki really, truly doesn't understand. After everything he went through in that short time, thinking his parents never loved him, that he was...stolen property, that he was the monster parents tell their children about - I honestly don't think he could understand anyone loving him at all, let alone unconditionally.
I HAD TOO MUCH TO SAYquickpixieNovember 28 2011, 00:51:08 UTC
so here is pt. 2 of the above comment.
Oh god, NO! The Hitler's son comment was so spot on. It's even what I thought of when I saw the movie. I don't know that there's anyone that invokes a such a universal loathing as Hitler and I thought it was a perfect analogy as to how Loki must have felt.
I think Odin is an honorable guy, too. I don't think he's as dark as some people like to portray him. There's a lot of drawing from the original Norse mythology which I think is great and interesting and makes for a compelling story, don't get me wrong, but in the film, my interpretation, at least, is the same as yours. Odin's really not playing games - although I can see Loki as thinking this - but that there is that guilt there, there is that distance because of his guilt. I really do believe he loves Loki, but I think a part of him was waiting for that day that Loki found out what he really was and what he would think of Odin, no matter how much love Odin showed him, and I feel like Odin thought that if he wasn't so close to Loki, it would hurt less. I think it was a misstep because Frigga was't presented as having that distance and Loki never seemed angry at her for keeping such a secret.
Oh, my heart hurts just talking about this. Oh, Loki. Oh, everyone, really.
Oh! And yes, absolutely, we should be friends! We can have lots of meta discussions on Loki especially after the Avengers movie comes out.
Yay! I'm glad you weren't bothered by the the crazy ravings. BECAUSE YOU CAN TOTALLY GET A LOT FROM PEOPLE'S INTERACTIONS OKAY EVEN JUST THAT OKAY! I think the reason their actions are so strong and don't really need verbal expression is because they're so attuned to one another. It sounds strange because Thor is the Ideal and Loki is the - he reminds me of a Slytherin. It's like this Gryfinndor/Slytherin contrast to me. Loki is so different, so much more cloaked in shadow - even his appearance - but still the two of them *get* each other. I think that's what makes the dynamic of their relationship so interesting. Because even though they're opposite sides of the coin (lol look at me sneaking in all kinds of fandom references), they still understand each other, which actually shows you an interesting aspect of Thor's character because you immediately get the feeling that Loki is someone who can read people, but Thor really...isn't and so it's fascinating that he still seems to get his brother at the point in the movie. But of course, Thor is dense in so many ways and so he doesn't understand the intricacies, I think, of who Loki fully is if that makes sense. He understands Loki, but in a way, he doesn't. He just has so much blind faith in Loki and I really think that, in that moment, (and in THAT DAMN CUT SCENE!) you can see how much he really loves Loki. I just love that scene so much because there's so much characterization going on, but it's such a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment.
Oh god, Hitler's son is actually the first analogy I wanted to use, but then some people just stop reading because they think you're being overdramatic and so I didn't because I did not want you to handwave me away because this conversation is brilliant! But yeah. I really, really think that that's a really appropriate comparison.
And then everything else. I always wonder - and I may have mentioned this before - but I always wonder if Loki flashed back to that scene where Odin said they were both born to be kings. I wonder if that thought was in the jumble of what had to be Loki's thoughts at that point. And if he did, the implications are unnerving. A lot of people interpret it as Odin wanting to use Loki as a pawn. I see it as more of an, I guess it's sort of a reveal, but I don't really feel like Odin was played as so cruel as to want to use Loki as a bargaining chip. I feel more like it was an acknowledgement and maybe a subtle nod to the audience for later. I don't know, but I think it must be somehow significant and more than just as a father trying to tell his two sons that they're equal.
It just...all of it is so heartbreaking - watching Loki just spin out and he's all alone and resenting everyone - resenting his parents for doing this to him - Odin more than Frigga, I'm sure, and resenting Thor because it's essentially an affirmation that Thor has been perfect and the favored son all along because how could his parents love a monster? How could anyone? I mean, even his biological father didn't love him - he just cast him out. And these thoughts just consumed him. I mean, he's alone with all of this for days or weeks or however long and I can't imagine what effect that would have on someone's psyche.
I definitely got carried away again. I feel like there's so much more I could say about Loki.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
The Avengers movie is going to kill my soul. I just know it! How is Thor going to able to stand it? I swear, if they make Thor all ~rawr I am a manly man and will fight this villain I called brother for so many ages, I will die. My heart will never be whole again. (I also just found out about Thor 2! I am so excited afkajs!) I'm just hoping it's not a Jane/Thor lovefest. I genuinely dislike her as a character. I think it's probably because she's played by Natalie Portman who...I'm sorry, but I just can't stand her. She took what could have been an interesting character - someone smart and capable and a fucking physicist! - and, I don't know. It's hard to explain, but I felt like she completely undermined the character by making her into this teenage girl. She used this baby voice and played up this starry-eyed little girl crush and I'm like really? You have to split this character into little girl crush and serious physicist. You can't marry them together to make a whole character. Unpopular opinion, but I think she's an awful actress. Except for Black Swan, I'm consistently disappointed by her. All of my Natalie Portman/Jane Foster dissatisfaction aside, the thing that also legitimately infuriated me about that storyline was the way it was portrayed at the end. Suddenly, this woman that Thor knew for what? Three days? became more important than his own brother. I couldn't even wrap my mind around it. As has been thoroughly demonstrated onscreen, Thor and Loki loved each other however we each choose to interpret that love. I know what camp you and I are in, but even as a brother, how could this even be plausible? A brother! This brother that he loved for all his life and because of what Loki did? I'm sure it had been explained to him at that point in the movie what exactly transpired and while Thor probably didn't grasp the finer details, how could he not see that the one he called brother was in pain? He saw it when Loki let go and he was devastated as he was hanging from Odin's staff. I just don't see how he could be so grief-stricken over this woman and care so little for his brother. And I really mean that apart from my shipping my love for Loki as a character. How do you do that? How could you? Show practically no care for someone you'd spent your whole life loving. In case you couldn't tell, the ending bothered me a lot. It didn't make any sense to me especially after I saw the cut scenes. I still can't wrap my mind around it and I genuinely found it upsetting. Anyway. I'm going to come down from my soapbox now.
And I really marries nicely with Thor's unconditional love for Loki (which I completely agree with). The ending just doesn't sit right with me for exactly that reason. I really do think that Thor loves Loki without restrictions, with conditions - he just does. Loki is his and he is Loki's - again, however people read into that. I feel like that was evident even when Loki and Thor fought on the Bifrost. I didn't see Thor's actions as being motivated by true anger at Loki - it was more of a devastation and a sort of betrayal that he never saw coming. I don't think it ever occurred to Thor that Loki was capable of something like this and without him knowing what took place in his absence, I think that makes it even more devastating. I will never be able to see Thor's actions on that bridge as motivated by revenge. I only see it as him stopping what he truly believes is wrong and also an attempt to save Loki from himself no matter how Loki fought him. And you're right. Loki really, truly doesn't understand. After everything he went through in that short time, thinking his parents never loved him, that he was...stolen property, that he was the monster parents tell their children about - I honestly don't think he could understand anyone loving him at all, let alone unconditionally.
Reply
Oh god, NO! The Hitler's son comment was so spot on. It's even what I thought of when I saw the movie. I don't know that there's anyone that invokes a such a universal loathing as Hitler and I thought it was a perfect analogy as to how Loki must have felt.
I think Odin is an honorable guy, too. I don't think he's as dark as some people like to portray him. There's a lot of drawing from the original Norse mythology which I think is great and interesting and makes for a compelling story, don't get me wrong, but in the film, my interpretation, at least, is the same as yours. Odin's really not playing games - although I can see Loki as thinking this - but that there is that guilt there, there is that distance because of his guilt. I really do believe he loves Loki, but I think a part of him was waiting for that day that Loki found out what he really was and what he would think of Odin, no matter how much love Odin showed him, and I feel like Odin thought that if he wasn't so close to Loki, it would hurt less. I think it was a misstep because Frigga was't presented as having that distance and Loki never seemed angry at her for keeping such a secret.
Oh, my heart hurts just talking about this. Oh, Loki. Oh, everyone, really.
Reply
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