(Posting from my Murbella journal, in fear LJ will die again between logins *siiiiigh* *sad for the Russian dissidents, but argh, these DDOS outages can stop any time now, really)
I've looked over your Ent backstory post. It sounds like the choices you made are really similar to the ones I made in my first playthrough (I was a diplomatic female warrior Hawke), so I'm definitely fine going with that backstory.
If you've heard about my Duncan, I hope you've only heard good things. He's a pretty good example of how I play Men With Issues:
- I have no fear to poke merciless fun at them and put them in awkward situations; - I am perfectly fine with endless UST and/or bickering; - I tend toward insane digressions of character analysis but have a weakness for crack.
In other words, I don't expect Hawke to jump into bed with Mr. Black Feathery Trenchcoat of Revolutionary Doom. I also have headcanon theories on how much of that doomy doom doom is really Anders and how much is Justice.
Oh lord, more DDOS outages? I missed though. Thankfully.
And rock. Mine is more a sarcastic than a diplomatic Hawke, or at least she was, nowadays she's pretty serious/sardonic more than either. I'm entirely happy with endless UST/bickering, delight in insane character analysis digressions, and also have a weakness for crack, which frequently gets me into trouble. ;) Sounds like we'd do a mix of serious and comedic (well, to us, less fun to our poor puppets!) play, which sounds great to me.
I have theories about Anders/Justice as well and how much of which is which. Toxoplasmosis is a parasitical disease, yes? Spread through cats? Pretty sure Justice is not Ser Pounce-a-Lot's fault. Though god that'd be funny.
I got locked into diplomatic!Hawke by being nice to my mom at the beginning, alas. The Anders-specific plot points are the ones where your playthrough and mine sound particularly similar.
Toxoplasmosis is spread through cats, indeed! Though I didn't intend the comparison quite so literally, that's the basic idea. Essentially, toxoplasmosis affects the brain such that the host ends up modifying its behavior (intentionality is suspect; we can't ask an infected mouse whether it really wanted to jump out in front of that cat, or whether it felt conflicted and torn about its yearnings felineward). I think Anders is being literal when he says that he and Justice are one: he can't separate them the way the other characters seem to want to do (e.g., in party banter). Justice isn't only active when Anders is glowing blue. It's permeated him, altering his actions *and perceptions* in subtler ways than it sometimes lets on. The glowing-blue-effect is misleading and falsely reassuring.
Yep, I agree with that interpretation (as does Hawke, though she rejected it for a long time). Though I do think it can vary depending on what you do in your playthrough. There is a bit of a line between Justice and Anders, which one is dominant at a given moment--the scene in the Fade proves that, I think. Actually I think his having a relationship with Hawke makes them more one/inseperable rather than less, from what I've seen on my different playthroughs. Especially on the rivalry unromanced way, he fights the...hmm, parasitical symbiotic nature of it, let's say...a lot more, whereas in a friendmanced version they're more clearly and closely united. BUT yes, I entirely agree for the friendmanced Anders certainly, and permeated is a good word for it. Also agreement about the perceptions point, which I think is key. Justice is always there, he's not lurking in the background somewhere muttering, they're the same being. When Anders says (for example) he fears what Justice may do, I think he really means--and knows, and knows that other people will misinterpret it--that he fears what he may do. A lot of the language of how Anders talks about himself/Justice is misleading, as well as the glowing-blue-effect, which I think is at least partly a coping mechanism on his part.
*nods!* Mine was a friendmanced Anders, and that's how I'd prefer to play him. I haven't rivalmanced him.
(I am currently a flamingly gay mage who is desperately pining over Fenris, who left me. No one is asking him why he has plastered my family crest onto his customary angstwear.)
I haven't done a rivalmance either actually (the only people I can make myself rival are Fenris and Merrill), but I watched it all on youtube. So my theory might have holes, but that's the conclusion I came to!
Oh Fenris, you are so silly, you and your angstwear and endless brooding. I just finished a game where I friendmanced him and it kinda cracked me up. I love DA2 but alllll the romances are so messed up.
I will have to seek out youtube clips! What you say about rival vs friend Anders with regard to degree of Justice permeation (for lack of a better word atm) is really interesting to me, because in my Fenris-romancing playthrough I'm nonromantic friends with Anders, and some of his dialogue is actually even more alarmingly codependent than romance!Anders was. When Hawke prevented Justice!Anders from killing Ella, in the Questioning Beliefs scene at the clinic I had to deny my urges to flirt* for the sake of preserving Fenris!options, and I found that Anders started gushing about how Hawke saved him from committing this atrocity. It's as though he starts relying on friendly!Hawke to keep him from going too far, and without the rivalry to goad him into vigilance, Anders relaxes his control.
* because besotted!Anders is irresistibly adorable
I noticed that too on this last playthrough! But yes, the rivalmance and rivalry without romance clips are odd, and there's a pretty clear division between Anders and Justice. As in, Justice will show up mid-sentence and demand that you stop interfereing, and then Anders will admit he's been having blackouts where he can't remember what he's been doing. It is all a bit contradictory and open to interpretation, but fascinating. But I can't bring myself to do a full rivalry playthrough.
I'd say the Hawke-dependence is a theme though, for Anders, Fenris, Merrill, and arguably Sebastian. It's weird that the openly commitmentphobic Isabela is actually the least screwed up romance option. She's certainly never co-dependent like the others are.
And yes, yes he is. Not flirting with him was *so* difficult.
I should say in the interest of full disclosure that while I am fine with eternal UST, I also ship Anders/anything like burning. Because of the snarky cuteness. So feel free to swat me with a rolled-up newspaper. XD
Well then, also in the interests of full disclosure, I ship Anders/Hawke like burning because...actually the list of reasons would take a while, though snarky cuteness is definitely on there, though Anders fixation probably beats it. *sheepish* Anyway, no swatting necessary! THOUGH this iteration of Hawke is so pissed and heartbroken and betrayed that I honestly have no idea if anything will come of it when she's through shouting at him. We'll have to see! And I can't wait to find out! =) (did you see her dream-thread with Roxie by any chance? It relates)
ARGH I KNOW!!! I sat there staring at the screen going oh, you bastard, you're NOT going to do this, oh hell you so are, oh shit, and I know what everything you're gathering is for and Hawke just doesn't so she'll help you. Shit shit shit. I wanted an option at the end of the game for "I love you, but you're still a bastard for what you did and I want to KICK YOU IN THE HEAD." ARGH.
As an FYI, in my head for this Hawke she let him help in the final battle (healers! Gotta have those!) but pretty much refused to talk to him before or afterwards, went off on her own immediately after the battle with just with her dog (his name is Teo, he's still around and important), and was swiped away to pod-dom while she was asleep.
I have some half-formed Theories about why Anders was such a dumbass regarding that entire companion quest. They're open to discussion and revision, though, because a big reason why I'm interested in playing Anders is that I found that storyline so unsatisfying, and therefore I'm still exploring ideas. As a roleplayer I often gravitate toward characters who have boundary issues regarding identity (Duncan the ghola, for example, who is both original!Duncan and a clone living thousands of years afterward).
The idea of Anders falling for rogue!Hawke seems oddly more fitting than, say, the obvious mage!Hawke choice: he's famous for his escapes and escape attempts, and she's made a career out of picking locks! As I wade into writing this app, I realize I should check on some gameplay choices, since this Anders is going to be the same as Ent!Hawke's Anders:
In Act 1, did Hawke flirt with Anders (thus getting the "don't go there" angst response right off the bat), or did she take the angel-wings route resulting in Anders getting his flirt on? (I tried both ways by the magic of reloading. I don't have a preference.)
In Act 2, did Hawke prevent Anders from killing Ella? (In my playthrough, she did, but I'm open to the other option.)
In Act 2, in the romance-initiating scene, did Hawke take a more romantic approach or a more humorous approach? ("Kiss me" or "I like to tease you")? (Again I am open to either option. I ended up sticking with the "Kiss me" etc, but with a charming rogue, I could see the latter working well.)
In Act 2, in the love scene, did Hawke make a wisecrack about Justice being an unwilling party to their romance?
In Act 2, in the morning-after scene, did Hawke declare her love for Anders (thus prompting "would you have me living with you, would you tell the whole world that you love an apostate, etc" romantic speech) or did she ask him if he wanted a sandwich? XD
(I think this is actually a really key moment for their relationship, and the one you've chosen will affect the way I play him, specifically with his attitude toward their cohabitation. I don't have a preference toward one or the other.)
In Act 2, did Hawke take Anders into the Fade? If so, did she make the deal with the Sloth demon and later tell Anders it was a ruse, or did she refuse the Sloth demon? (In my playthrough, she refused the Sloth demon, basically because I wanted that healing magic in my party ...)
In Act 3, at the conclusion of the Justice companion quest (you know, that turning point where he's gonna get a new coat!), did Hawke accede readily to Anders' request to distract Elthina, or did she ask him a lot of suspicious questions? If the latter, did she accuse him of blackmail? And did she go along with the plan anyway?
This one's more a headcanon choice than a gameplay choice: When did Ent!Hawke realize that Anders' potion wasn't really going to be a potion at all, and that something was up? Was the realization just in the cutscene, or had she already been suspecting from the very beginning? (I ask mainly because Hawke is a smart woman, she's had some occasion to be concerned with gunpowder issues wrt the Qunari gaatlok quests, and she knows Anders better than he probably thinks she does. Also, who the hell makes a potion out of manure and then drinks it?)
Did Hawke ever flirt with anyone else while Anders was in the party? Before or after they move in together? Did she flirt with Zevran, thus provoking Anders' little jealous snit? (It looks like Ent has a Zevran.)
long comment is loooooooong and split into twotry_winging_itDecember 1 2011, 00:25:11 UTC
Right, answers! Let's think. This Hawke isn't quite like any of the playthroughs I did so I'll have to wing it and invent what she did on the spot. Goes with the name.
1) When in doubt, assume Hawke went for the sarcastic response. There are a few important exceptions to this, which I'll get to later, but not many. Essentially my Hawke was sarcastic in acts one and two and then more diplomatic (though still often sarcastic) in act three (she took her responsibilities as Champion seriously, though she hadn't wanted it).
2) Stopped Anders from killing Ella.
3) Initiated all flirting with Anders, and went for the scrappy underdog/how long until I drive you mad? route. (then veered off into "Don't tell me, show me" because the other two options annoy me)
4) Flirted with Anders and Isabela but only actually persued a romance with Anders. In non-game terms, imagine that she flirted with Isabela constantly all the way through the game because let's face it, Isabela flirts about as easily as she breathes, but it was just in play. Might have flirted a smidge with others before moving in with Anders, in charming/humorous Hawke vein, but not afterwards, no.
5) For the love scene, did not make the threesome comment (she has a bit more tact than that), and did declare her love (non-sandwich route).
6) Did take Anders into the Fade (which prompted interesting thoughts/ideas on her part about Justice), did not make the deal with the demon; the other people she'd taken were Fenris and Isabela, who of course succumbed to their respective demons. Whoops.
7) Helped mages whenever possible (sent Feynriel to the Dalish instead of the Circle, etc). Refused to pick a side between Orsino and Meredith at the beginning of act three, but other than that, mages everywhere.
8) Act three Justice quest. Hoo boy. Basically, she was dubious from the start that he'd really found a potion that would seperate him from Justice. Anders is a crap liar, and she didn't really believe a potion would be able to do it (ritual, maaaaaaybe. Potion, no. She lived with Bethany and Malcolm before Anders, she knows a fair bit about magic for a non-mage). She said nothing about her doubts and helped him gather ingredients anyway, but called him on it when he said he needed to sneak into the Chantry. Lots of suspicious questions including accusing him of blackmail, yes (which he totally was doing imo). But she still helped, and used the opportunity to try hard to convince Elthina to act, and just...hoped she might be wrong about her gut feeling that said Anders was doing something very, very stupid, essentially. (also in yay black coat scene, did say "Funny, that sounds like the sort of thing someone says when they're about to stab you in the back" and "you're wrong; there's nothing more important than love") I imagine there was a lot unspoken between them around/after that, as Anders quietly prepared for his own death and Hawke refused to admit that the sitation was as irretrievable as it was.
9) Yep, we do have a Zevran and he kicks ass, not around often alas but I swear it actually is Zevran playing, that's the reason I was lured into Ent to begin with, his mun invited me and he was too ridiculously awesome to resist. Hawke actually doesn't flirt with him because she doesn't take him seriously, but they're friends. For beforehand, baah, can't remember the dialogue from those scenes...I'd guess that she flirted a bit (much as she does with Isabela, to her mind) but not much. Maybe once out of the various times the option is given.
An explanation, because this is important and Anders would know: Hawke's primary goal all along was to protect her family, period. Everything that happened along the way was incidental to that. Her 'family' extended to include the rest of her motley crew. When she became Champion this extended to Kirkwall, sort of, but she was aware that was bigger and more impossible than could really be handled, especially in the circumstances. Still, she felt obligated to do her best. Responsibility weighed heavily on her and she used humor as a coping mechanism, but by the end of act three (and this certainly continues) she was so worn down that she couldn't joke much anymore. She's a lot more serious in Ent than she would have been during her game.
Key thing: Hawke's dog is Teo. He has a sense of humor. He used to like Anders despite Anders' poor taste in preferring cats and would tease him a great deal (in canine fashion). Feel free to invent incidents. Hawke is pretty much inseperable from her dog in Ent, so don't forget about him.
Also, really key thing: her first name was Marian, but she stopped using it and opted to just go by Hawke when her father died (she was seventeen). For a few reasons, none of which she talked about seriously to anyone, but mostly symbolic of how at that point she pretty much decided to live to protect her family and not much else. Letting herself love Anders is one of the few things she ever actually did for herself after that point, which is one reason why his betrayal (as she sees it) wrecked her as badly as it did. Anders is perhaps the only person not in her family that she would have allowed to call her Marian. (she's used the name exactly once in Ent, in unusual circumstances on feudal fantasy planet when she was--much to her annoyance--playing at being nobility). I could spend a looooot of time going into detail on this one.
Query: have you played the DLCs? She brought him along on both of those.
As a final FYI, since arriving at Ent Hawke has had a one night stand with Sheeana. Sandoval had a party, things happened, y'know. This will probably come up sooner or later so I thought I'd let you know. Doubt it counts as common knowledge/would be gossiped about though. They were both masked at the time and didn't even find out each other's names until later.
ALL THAT SAID, it's a game. If we get details wrong, eh, we'll go with it. =)
I've looked over your Ent backstory post. It sounds like the choices you made are really similar to the ones I made in my first playthrough (I was a diplomatic female warrior Hawke), so I'm definitely fine going with that backstory.
If you've heard about my Duncan, I hope you've only heard good things. He's a pretty good example of how I play Men With Issues:
- I have no fear to poke merciless fun at them and put them in awkward situations;
- I am perfectly fine with endless UST and/or bickering;
- I tend toward insane digressions of character analysis but have a weakness for crack.
In other words, I don't expect Hawke to jump into bed with Mr. Black Feathery Trenchcoat of Revolutionary Doom. I also have headcanon theories on how much of that doomy doom doom is really Anders and how much is Justice.
Because Justice is like toxoplasmosis, in a way.
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And rock. Mine is more a sarcastic than a diplomatic Hawke, or at least she was, nowadays she's pretty serious/sardonic more than either. I'm entirely happy with endless UST/bickering, delight in insane character analysis digressions, and also have a weakness for crack, which frequently gets me into trouble. ;) Sounds like we'd do a mix of serious and comedic (well, to us, less fun to our poor puppets!) play, which sounds great to me.
I have theories about Anders/Justice as well and how much of which is which. Toxoplasmosis is a parasitical disease, yes? Spread through cats? Pretty sure Justice is not Ser Pounce-a-Lot's fault. Though god that'd be funny.
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Toxoplasmosis is spread through cats, indeed! Though I didn't intend the comparison quite so literally, that's the basic idea. Essentially, toxoplasmosis affects the brain such that the host ends up modifying its behavior (intentionality is suspect; we can't ask an infected mouse whether it really wanted to jump out in front of that cat, or whether it felt conflicted and torn about its yearnings felineward). I think Anders is being literal when he says that he and Justice are one: he can't separate them the way the other characters seem to want to do (e.g., in party banter). Justice isn't only active when Anders is glowing blue. It's permeated him, altering his actions *and perceptions* in subtler ways than it sometimes lets on. The glowing-blue-effect is misleading and falsely reassuring.
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(I am currently a flamingly gay mage who is desperately pining over Fenris, who left me. No one is asking him why he has plastered my family crest onto his customary angstwear.)
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Oh Fenris, you are so silly, you and your angstwear and endless brooding. I just finished a game where I friendmanced him and it kinda cracked me up. I love DA2 but alllll the romances are so messed up.
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* because besotted!Anders is irresistibly adorable
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I'd say the Hawke-dependence is a theme though, for Anders, Fenris, Merrill, and arguably Sebastian. It's weird that the openly commitmentphobic Isabela is actually the least screwed up romance option. She's certainly never co-dependent like the others are.
And yes, yes he is. Not flirting with him was *so* difficult.
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As an FYI, in my head for this Hawke she let him help in the final battle (healers! Gotta have those!) but pretty much refused to talk to him before or afterwards, went off on her own immediately after the battle with just with her dog (his name is Teo, he's still around and important), and was swiped away to pod-dom while she was asleep.
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The idea of Anders falling for rogue!Hawke seems oddly more fitting than, say, the obvious mage!Hawke choice: he's famous for his escapes and escape attempts, and she's made a career out of picking locks! As I wade into writing this app, I realize I should check on some gameplay choices, since this Anders is going to be the same as Ent!Hawke's Anders:
In Act 1, did Hawke flirt with Anders (thus getting the "don't go there" angst response right off the bat), or did she take the angel-wings route resulting in Anders getting his flirt on? (I tried both ways by the magic of reloading. I don't have a preference.)
In Act 2, did Hawke prevent Anders from killing Ella? (In my playthrough, she did, but I'm open to the other option.)
In Act 2, in the romance-initiating scene, did Hawke take a more romantic approach or a more humorous approach? ("Kiss me" or "I like to tease you")? (Again I am open to either option. I ended up sticking with the "Kiss me" etc, but with a charming rogue, I could see the latter working well.)
In Act 2, in the love scene, did Hawke make a wisecrack about Justice being an unwilling party to their romance?
In Act 2, in the morning-after scene, did Hawke declare her love for Anders (thus prompting "would you have me living with you, would you tell the whole world that you love an apostate, etc" romantic speech) or did she ask him if he wanted a sandwich? XD
(I think this is actually a really key moment for their relationship, and the one you've chosen will affect the way I play him, specifically with his attitude toward their cohabitation. I don't have a preference toward one or the other.)
In Act 2, did Hawke take Anders into the Fade? If so, did she make the deal with the Sloth demon and later tell Anders it was a ruse, or did she refuse the Sloth demon? (In my playthrough, she refused the Sloth demon, basically because I wanted that healing magic in my party ...)
In Act 3, at the conclusion of the Justice companion quest (you know, that turning point where he's gonna get a new coat!), did Hawke accede readily to Anders' request to distract Elthina, or did she ask him a lot of suspicious questions? If the latter, did she accuse him of blackmail? And did she go along with the plan anyway?
This one's more a headcanon choice than a gameplay choice: When did Ent!Hawke realize that Anders' potion wasn't really going to be a potion at all, and that something was up? Was the realization just in the cutscene, or had she already been suspecting from the very beginning? (I ask mainly because Hawke is a smart woman, she's had some occasion to be concerned with gunpowder issues wrt the Qunari gaatlok quests, and she knows Anders better than he probably thinks she does. Also, who the hell makes a potion out of manure and then drinks it?)
Did Hawke ever flirt with anyone else while Anders was in the party? Before or after they move in together? Did she flirt with Zevran, thus provoking Anders' little jealous snit? (It looks like Ent has a Zevran.)
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1) When in doubt, assume Hawke went for the sarcastic response. There are a few important exceptions to this, which I'll get to later, but not many. Essentially my Hawke was sarcastic in acts one and two and then more diplomatic (though still often sarcastic) in act three (she took her responsibilities as Champion seriously, though she hadn't wanted it).
2) Stopped Anders from killing Ella.
3) Initiated all flirting with Anders, and went for the scrappy underdog/how long until I drive you mad? route. (then veered off into "Don't tell me, show me" because the other two options annoy me)
4) Flirted with Anders and Isabela but only actually persued a romance with Anders. In non-game terms, imagine that she flirted with Isabela constantly all the way through the game because let's face it, Isabela flirts about as easily as she breathes, but it was just in play. Might have flirted a smidge with others before moving in with Anders, in charming/humorous Hawke vein, but not afterwards, no.
5) For the love scene, did not make the threesome comment (she has a bit more tact than that), and did declare her love (non-sandwich route).
6) Did take Anders into the Fade (which prompted interesting thoughts/ideas on her part about Justice), did not make the deal with the demon; the other people she'd taken were Fenris and Isabela, who of course succumbed to their respective demons. Whoops.
7) Helped mages whenever possible (sent Feynriel to the Dalish instead of the Circle, etc). Refused to pick a side between Orsino and Meredith at the beginning of act three, but other than that, mages everywhere.
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9) Yep, we do have a Zevran and he kicks ass, not around often alas but I swear it actually is Zevran playing, that's the reason I was lured into Ent to begin with, his mun invited me and he was too ridiculously awesome to resist. Hawke actually doesn't flirt with him because she doesn't take him seriously, but they're friends. For beforehand, baah, can't remember the dialogue from those scenes...I'd guess that she flirted a bit (much as she does with Isabela, to her mind) but not much. Maybe once out of the various times the option is given.
An explanation, because this is important and Anders would know: Hawke's primary goal all along was to protect her family, period. Everything that happened along the way was incidental to that. Her 'family' extended to include the rest of her motley crew. When she became Champion this extended to Kirkwall, sort of, but she was aware that was bigger and more impossible than could really be handled, especially in the circumstances. Still, she felt obligated to do her best. Responsibility weighed heavily on her and she used humor as a coping mechanism, but by the end of act three (and this certainly continues) she was so worn down that she couldn't joke much anymore. She's a lot more serious in Ent than she would have been during her game.
Key thing: Hawke's dog is Teo. He has a sense of humor. He used to like Anders despite Anders' poor taste in preferring cats and would tease him a great deal (in canine fashion). Feel free to invent incidents. Hawke is pretty much inseperable from her dog in Ent, so don't forget about him.
Also, really key thing: her first name was Marian, but she stopped using it and opted to just go by Hawke when her father died (she was seventeen). For a few reasons, none of which she talked about seriously to anyone, but mostly symbolic of how at that point she pretty much decided to live to protect her family and not much else. Letting herself love Anders is one of the few things she ever actually did for herself after that point, which is one reason why his betrayal (as she sees it) wrecked her as badly as it did. Anders is perhaps the only person not in her family that she would have allowed to call her Marian. (she's used the name exactly once in Ent, in unusual circumstances on feudal fantasy planet when she was--much to her annoyance--playing at being nobility). I could spend a looooot of time going into detail on this one.
Query: have you played the DLCs? She brought him along on both of those.
As a final FYI, since arriving at Ent Hawke has had a one night stand with Sheeana. Sandoval had a party, things happened, y'know. This will probably come up sooner or later so I thought I'd let you know. Doubt it counts as common knowledge/would be gossiped about though. They were both masked at the time and didn't even find out each other's names until later.
ALL THAT SAID, it's a game. If we get details wrong, eh, we'll go with it. =)
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