THG fic: "Spin Control" [19/24]

[trovia]

Title: Spin Control
Pairings: Finnick/Haymitch, Kat/Peeta
Characters: Finnick, Haymitch, Chaff, Peeta, Gale, Kat; plus appearances by Mags, Johanna, Caesar Flickerman, President Snow, Effie, Claudius Templesmith, Beetee, Prim, Thresh, Rue, District Twelve ensemble and various OC
Rating: adult
Warnings: forced prostitution & non-con; people dealing

Comments

[trovia]

Gah, I've just looked at this fandom enough to make me want to stab myself.

Hee! Tumblr breaks the best man's faith.

So, I have too many thoughts here

Like Finnick! :D Bring them all on!

I figured I had two options with this scene (including set-up in the previous chapter), either it goes spectacularly wrong in terms of communication and emotional reactions, or it's a total non-event where Haymitch's reaction basically is, "Huh, how 'bout that." I've doubted occasionally along the way that I chose the right one, but the two of them having an eloquent, rational conversation about their feelings was never on the list. ;) (I hate it when characters just get out of these conversations feeling really good and resolved. That never happens to me. It's always gradual. Though there are people who love stuff like make-up sex, so apparently it's a real experience for some people?)

Finnick has made a lot of effort to run away from himself for many years, quite literally, and now there's simply no acceptable escape route left anymore. So in true Career fashion, he has to either freeze or turn around and attack. Heh.

His first client: that is my headcanon THANK YOU.

Recognized it, didcha? :) I remember how we agreed on this one!

Haymitch... ooh, always bad when writers are tempted to explain their characters! :D The way I picture it, he was plain upset. Haymitch's experience with kink is such that clients, or even Beetee during a meaningless romp, say "I have this kink" and what they mean is, "Let's do that tonight." Neither he nor Finnick have a healthy enough sexuality to have a good grasp on how you sometimes like fantasizing about something but still wouldn't do it for real. I wouldn't say he's angry at Finnick - he doesn't get that far - and "How can you ask that of me" isn't really his go-to reaction to people in his care. He's upset because it's triggering, and he tries to make himself consider it, which is even more triggering and upsetting. As is the fact that Finnick is having a breakdown of some kind just from talking about it, which upsets him more. Then he clues in that Finnick and he aren't on the same page, and his first instinct for that is anger too, because that's how he's rolling already. He goes from "wtf no" to "this is a bizarro nightmare, I can't believe this" to "was that really necessary?" Which is when he calms down enough to start thinking. His resolve to not do it like that with Finnick, and the reason for that that he found, also help with that. Also that's when all the really worrisome stuff starts coming out of Finnick's mouth - not worrisome so much in terms of "will Finnick go crazy?" but more worrisome like "Shit, wait, this is bullshit logic, I didn't know he had that in his head." He's not comfortable with the idea of rape fantasies. He's not exactly a kink-positive person. But he could have reacted more calmly in a different situation.

Thank you very much like always for your very intriguing thoughts. :)

[roguedemon]

I checked out AO3 and was surprised that you didn't get more comments. I think you finally did it...You broke the fandom. ;) Seriously, I think that this chapter was really crucial -- it was a beautiful payoff from all the conflict Finnick has been struggling with since the very first chapter. A comment from AO3 comparing Finnnick to a child seeking comfort clarified something I was thinking abut here. A part of Finnick was frozen at 14, and in this chapter his traumatized inner child is finally breaking through. It was very telling that Haymitch reverted to calling him "kid" at that moment, and Finnick got that on some level.

Something weird had happened inside of him, breaking open some kind of dam that he hadn’t known was there. Hearing himself say those obvious words - of course, I cry, they hurt me - had unlocked something that maybe didn’t even have to do with the dreams and the sex. Or maybe it had everything to do with it, and he couldn’t even attach a specific feeling to it. It just made tears pouring out. He threatened to break.

All this time, he's been dealing by denying his feelings, running away from them and putting on a front that everything is fine. He really needs to acknowledge how much he's hurting and give himself a chance to grieve if he's going to be able to stay (reasonably) sane. And just acknowledging he's being raped out loud is huge in itself. I loved how you described his first "patron" -- you made it clear that everything involved her violating him -- she was active and he was the victim. That language is so important when you are dealing with the whole rape culture/victim blaming interwoven into the fabric of our society and Panem's. And of course it also addresses the whole perception that a teenage boy cannot be raped by an older woman.

She’d been very soothing and very kind and it had hurt so fucking much when she put things inside him before she put him inside her, making sure to take him in every way.

It's just, what a complete mindfuck. It is, of course, even worse that she was *nice* to him. I liked what you said above about Haymitch's reaction to people "in his care" -- it says a lot about Haymitch and his desire to take care of people, and in this moment Haymitch clues into the fact that part of Finnick is still this terrified 14-yr.-old that needs comfort.

One thing I didn't really think about when I first read this chapter was that Haymitch really had no idea that any of this was in Finnick's head. From the reader's perspective these issues has been there from the first chapter. It's always there near the surface of Finnick's consciousness. Haymitch wasn't expecting any of this so he needs to work his way from WTF to getting what's really going on here. He eventually did exactly the right thing: He stayed there and worked through everything and gave Finnick the reassurance he needed.

I think that sometimes you can have moments when you work through something and have epiphanies that make you feel much better, whether you are alone or with someone else. It really depends on the issues and people in question. In this case, there is no way everything would just be all better. He still made a major breakthrough here, but things are far too painful and complex to just resolve themselves. I think some people probably have a hard time reading that, but it's what I like. :)

[trovia]

Yeah, I was a little sad that the chapter didn't get a lot of comments. It might have gotten a little too complex to write commentary on it easily. :-/

I picture that first encounter with a client as really brain-breaking and traumatizing for poor Finnick, who wouldn't have had the first idea how to handle it, just feeling overpowered by the entire situation, never mind that woman. (I doubt he had a lot of time to mentally prepare himself. I really don't think even Mags saw it coming that early.) And then, he immediately got the mixed signals of "this is hurting me" and "everybody is nice to me." He would have developed this idea of himself as a powerful killer being complicit in the abuse as a coping mechanism. I think it was awful and terrible in the first year and he couldn't cope with that feeling. The thing that gets him crying is this idea of "of course I cry in my dreams, because they hurt me" because he's understood that he is being hurt and therefore he should be crying. He'd very much prefer at this point actually being held down and beaten in the Capitol because it would be so much easier to process that. Also a part of him probably wants the punishment. But mostly he just wants the situation to reflect his experience.

Yeah, Haymitch had no idea that Finnick was struggling with this particular thing. He understood well enough that Finnick is struggling to handle the abuse, and like he said in an earlier scene to Finnick, he understands that it makes a lot of confusing bullshit appear in your head. But a part of him thought that Finnick knew that it was bullshit. And the rape fantasies are far enough outside his own experience to be really unexpected and very hard to handle. Haymitch himself often deals by retreating and working through things on his own time and he assumed that that's what Finnick was doing. They've never talked about details before though.

[roguedemon]

I think that just that first client would be enough to break someone for life, much less an endless string of abuse heaped on top of that. I'm trying to imagine Mags coming up with a way to really talk to him about it and failing. She must have been feeling some heavy guilt herself.

And then, he immediately got the mixed signals of "this is hurting me" and "everybody is nice to me." He would have developed this idea of himself as a powerful killer being complicit in the abuse as a coping mechanism.

I like that because I think many people don't understand that even someone's screwed-up schemas are coping mechanisms in cases like this. In general, the brain is always scrambling to make sense of everything and develop coping strategies. It's pretty common for your mind to settle on the wrong thing. One thing I really respect about his character is that he's hung in there and kept fighting for his own life and mental health even when he was going about it the wrong way. But leaving D4, pursuing a relationship with Haymitch, trying to communicate with Haymitch ;), his exercise fixation, starting the training school, and finally confessing his greatest fears are all attempts to get somewhere better. I find that whenever I read comments on a fanfic or pairing I see people trying to figure out who the stronger member of the pairing is. I tend to find this to be of limited utility because the word "strong" has been used so much nobody actually knows what it means anymore. But I will say that I don't think that Finnick breaking down, either in this fic or in canon, means he's weak. Getting overwhelmed by pain is a perfectly sane reaction in this universe. Stoicism is not necessarily the most functional reaction when you are going crazy with pain. Unless you get some of the poison out of your system, you probably won't be able to make more progress.

The thing that gets him crying is this idea of "of course I cry in my dreams, because they hurt me" because he's understood that he is being hurt and therefore he should be crying. He'd very much prefer at this point actually being held down and beaten in the Capitol because it would be so much easier to process that. Also a part of him probably wants the punishment. But mostly he just wants the situation to reflect his experience.

I liked how you mentioned that his dreams generally recycle whatever his most recent experiences in the Capitol were, except that in his dreams he gets to say no, cry, express the pain, and generally make it clear that he 's being forced to do everything. So basically what he is actually fantasizing about is changing to situation to make it clear he is being forced and resolve the massive cognitive dissonance in his head. But he doesn't get that -- he interprets them as him having a RL rape kink, as being sick, etc. It would really take a trained psychologist to tease all that out. I loved how Haymitch admitted that he didn't understand, but was still able to sit Finnick down and work things out logically in order to get him to a better place. I was just so glad to see Finnick getting some real comfort here. The part where he was so sure that Haymitch was going to go away just broke my heart -- in that instant he really came across like a child who was waiting for punishment. :(.

I've always thought you've done a brilliant job of showing that Finnick's situation is just the perfect mindfuck -- it would be easier for him if he wasn't forced to constantly act like he's just delighted to participate in his own violation. The fact that he was a 14-yr.-old virgin when it started just makes it an ideal recipe for disaster. Also, sometime I really need to focus more on his whole idea of himself as a powerful killer who enjoyed murdering children, but I've gotta wrap this up.

[roguedemon]

The last thing I wanted to mention is that it has not escaped my notice that Haymitch still won't talk about what he really wants. :) Finnick has good reason to be worried about that: he's a rape victim in a relationship with another rape victim, and he has no previous experience with relationship, so of course he feel like he doesn't know what he's doing. He's so aware of his own triggers, of course he doesn't want to hurt Haymitch in any way. And I liked what you wrote about the difficulty with wanting things -- for these guys wanting things has been a minefield. I've always been really touched by how hard Finnick is trying to do good things for Haymitch.

If Finnick kept making the calls when they had sex, maybe that even meant he could decide to make it about Haymitch, too. He could make it about Haymitch all he wanted. It was Finnick who made the decisions, but it was Haymitch he was focusing on.

And now you're starting to make the D/s dynamic more explicit. ;) Of course it would squick the hell out of both of them if you called it that, and Haymitch insists that he isn't a submissive *pets him*. But it does seem to be a little more explicit now that they want it that way. It's seems like that it's been hard for Finnick to figure out whether he wants to do things a certain way because he needs time to work through his trauma (e.g., he couldn't deal with any touching on either side at first, and that slowly changed) or because that's just what he likes. It did seem like they hit on something in the last chapter, though.

Oh, and I liked how you bookended the two chapters, starting out with Finnick being triggered by the horrid stylist's portfolio and having a breakdown, Haymitch and Finnick taking turns working through things as the chapters progressed, Finnick finally having something of a breakthrough, and ending with Cinna and Portia and a glimmer of hope. I do notice your literary devices, even if I mainly comment on the psychology of it all.

You also realize that now you need to write the fic where Finnick and Joanna start a punk rock band post-rebellion. I actually picture it happening after the rebellion takes place in this universe (I assume it will eventually happen, just in a different way), and Haymitch being very amused but also thinking it's pretty hot. : D Actually, I could see Haymitch becoming their manager and masterminding their career. Also, for some reason I picture Lyme as their drummer.

[trovia]

The last thing I wanted to mention is that it has not escaped my notice that Haymitch still won't talk about what he really wants. :)

Hah. He doesn't! :D He has a pretty good idea of what he wants at this point but he won't share. I think the reasons for that will become apparent once we learn what it is. However, we still have some chapters to go and it would be very boring if everything was already resolved. ;)

and Haymitch insists that he isn't a submissive *pets him*

*snickers* My beta commented on that paragraph by saying "Welcome to life as a dom, Finnick."

There are so many different ways of having sex. We tend to categorize them into vanilla and kink, and normal vs boring vs not normal vs exciting, but fact is, especially if you have a complicated history, you have to go beyond those labels and just figure out what does it for you. Other people feel attracted to things to do in bed because they feel different and forbidden. Finnick and Haymitch need to find something that just works, and learn to disregard their prejudice. I very much doubt that they would ever look at themselves as this kinky D/s couple but it hardly matters. Haymitch can tell himself he's not a submissive and it's different, dammit, for all eternity as long as the actual sex does the trick for him.

I do notice your literary devices, even if I mainly comment on the psychology of it all.

Aw, thanks. :)

You also realize that now you need to write the fic where Finnick and Joanna start a punk rock band post-rebellion.

LOL. I want Brutus playing base then. Finnick could sing. Johanna gets the lead guitar. Lyme at the drums. There would be no keyboard, of course. It would be good, old, dirty punk rock and a lot of screaming. :p

(I assume it will eventually happen, just in a different way)

WILL IT THOUGH. :D

[trovia]

I'm trying to imagine Mags coming up with a way to really talk to him about it and failing. She must have been feeling some heavy guilt herself.

Ugh, yeah, that must have been very awful. I've addressed before in my other fic Moss on the Ruins how the massive age gap makes it very hard for Finnick to talk about this with Mags. Mags would have that problem too, and she would also feel guilty. Add to that the fact that she has her own coping mechanisms that she's clinging to, like Finnick learned when he last talked to Caramel. Considering Mags must have been informed that this was about to happen, on short notice, and considering she must have been present somewhere in the same building in District Eight knowing what was happening to that boy in another room, must have been awful in its own terrifying way.

I find that whenever I read comments on a fanfic or pairing I see people trying to figure out who the stronger member of the pairing is.

Oh god, yes. Just recently, there was an explosion of that kind of discussion regarding Annie and Finnick, and all I could say was "Uhm guys, this isn't a competition." But nobody listened to me of course. ;) Looking at canon, you could say Finnick is coping better than Haymitch, but then again Haymitch has twenty years and a dead family on Finnick and who knows how Finnick would be doing at forty. I really enjoyed about the original novels how you could see that every victors situation is so different, and they all find these different ways of coping depending on that and on their personalities. I've always thought Finnick would be an intrinsically active person (the way he used the prostitution to gather secrets), somebody who needs to do things and change things. Obviously that kind of character motivation is a gift for a writer. But that also makes coping difficult for him as a victor who has all agenda taken from him, forced to live out prescribed roles. He occasionally runs into a wall. But he always stays in motion. There's a reason that he's changing his outlooks on himself and life and sex faster than Haymitch in this fic, who was frozen in this terrible paralysis for so many years. Also used alcohol to escape from the necessity to cope with a lot of things. Stuck alone in D12, he must have felt like there was nothing left he could try to change or improve things.

So basically what he is actually fantasizing about is changing to situation to make it clear he is being forced and resolve the massive cognitive dissonance in his head.

He is! That realization, for me, was at the very beginning of working on this fic. :D It made so much sense to me that Finnick would have these fantasies. I hadn't ever encountered that kind of dreams in any other person or character before, but I was thinking about people with fantasies of killing other people. It doesn't mean they want to do it, but those fantasies too can be expressions of helplessness and your mind trying to come up with complete solution to a problem that you couldn't solve otherwise. Finnick wants to be able to say no, so when he does, in his dreams, that's a positive thing and so it turns into a sex dream. Not a nightmare. A dream about what he wants to do during sex. But only within the realm of the sex he usually has, the sex in the Capitol.

Also, sometime I really need to focus more on his whole idea of himself as a powerful killer who enjoyed murdering children, but I've gotta wrap this up.

Please do, some time. :)