Open letter to estameguapo
Hey man,
I looked everything over and took lots of notes on my hard copy. There’s four pages of ariel 8 to comment on, so I’d like to cut through it as efficiently and concisely as I can. I don’t see anything dishonest about what you’re saying here. It all seems to come consistently from what you’ve said all along. Your main points:
• Friendship is a core Christian value, and a sense of fraternity is implied.
• People make personal sacrifices with regards to their family as a result of their convictions.
• A man without fellowship is like a fish without a bicycle (kidding)
These are all true. No dispute whatsoever. These are fine convictions to have.
I hope you won’t feel too publicly shamed if I point out one of three hypocrisies I noticed-a very small one which I only mention pertinently because it applies to my comments. In one post of five, you simultaneously ask me to remember that your post represents your convictions, not GCM’s; but then go on to speak on behalf of them in response to my verses from 1st John 3: “For my part, amen. On behalf of the current and past leaders serving in GCM.” My hope was that I’d be able to distinguish these comments from the ‘party line’. You do seem to be towing it fairly well, and it speaks directly to some concerns that folks have had about GCM all along. My job here is not to point out that these concerns exist-that’s what the webpage is for. I came to discuss Scripture, and to point out the biblical error that gives rise to cultic accusations. My assertion: when we follow Scripture properly (and as a result shine as a beacon of truth), we commend ourselves to men’s consciences instead of give them pause. (2 Cor 4:2)
The most dangerous point of your convictions which does not stand in contrast to Great Commission teaching: Neglect thy family. This is not something Jesus ever advocates through speech or action. The verse most often pointed to in support of this dangerous teaching is this one: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes, even his own life-he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25) To better understand what this means, you must look to the word used for ‘hate’ in the Greek, miseo. It isn’t kataphroneo which means to disdain-the kind of hate where you stop talking to that person, like we did in Junior High School when there was some kind of juvenile misunderstanding. Miseo implies pursuit, like grandma chasing you down with a rolling pin. The difference between the two words is present in juxtaposition in Luke 16:13. I’m splitting hairs because of some other important things that Jesus did and said with regards to his family values.
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
Your verses from Ruth also oddly corroborate this. While we may very well be called away from them, as Elisha was, we aren’t to treat them with neglect nor disdain.
“That employment to which I have called thee, doth not require an alienation of thy heart from thy parents, nor the total neglect of them.” --1 Kings 19 (John Wesley commentary)
“Elisha came to a resolution presently, but begged a little time, not to ask leave, but only to take leave, of his parents. This was not an excuse for delay, like his (Lu. 9:61) that desired he might bid those farewell that were at home, but only a reservation of the respect and duty he owed to his father and mother. Elijah bade him to back and do it, he would not hinder him; nay, if he would, he might go back, and not return, for any thing he had done to him. He will not force him, nor take him against his will; let him sit down and count the cost, and make it his own act. The efficacy of God's grace preserves the native liberty of man's will, so that those who are good are good of choice and not by constraint, not pressed men, but volunteers.” --1 Kings 19 (Matthew Henry commentary)
Recently, we met someone who really went out on a limb in support of what we’d done, with a lot more to lose than I. Even though there was a certainty of the rightness of the cause, there was also a great sense of the gravity. I have thought to myself, “What have I done to you?" but that may not be the sense you interpret from the words of Elijiah. It’s possible that those words served not only as a reminder.
I found the JFB commentary less than helpful because it skips verses and reduces Elijiah’s initial point of view to “petulance.” This brings me to my second point about isolation, not necessarily from family, but the continued seeming endorsement of only approved relationships. The “out of sight, out of mind” short-sightedness with regards to relationships even within Great Commission has already been noted, and I’ll support the notion that it exists by virtue of my own experience. It seems to me like the tone of your post would support it, too. The fact that you finally did post would be to your credit, and an usually in-depth response differing from what I’ve seen from others. Still, we create barriers to relationship that don’t necessarily appear in the Word, then excuse ourselves for not relating if those people are not present. That, at least, would seem to be the pattern of Great Commission as verified by the evidence currently before us.
[Elijiah] replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too."
My point in bringing up 1st Kings 19 is that people who start to notice something wrong within Great Commission can start to feel isolated-like they are the only one. The most notable breach in our church was the Gregg Walters resignation. The meeting to discuss the implications and concerns of this was held coincidentally with the Sipian’s going-away party. It was no accident. In less prominent situations, folks don’t necessarily have the backing that a Gregg Walters gets, usually aren’t aware that similar things have happened to others. Speaking one’s point of view is discouraged if it would be implicatory to Great Commission. I know because someone stopped me on the street to tell me how unbiblical it would be. This same person called a friend of mine to tell them that they were “walking with the Devil.” Singling out this person, would not be fair, it's only significant because of the response induced. The typical response (yes, it happens enough for there to be a typical response) is to run like Elijiah, afraid. If we are merely “plugged in” as you suggest, this wouldn’t hurt. It doesn’t hurt an appliance to unplug it. The feeling of isolation, having lost one’s closest (sometimes only) friends is the kind of thing that “plugs” don’t cover. But it is a mistaken belief, as a person who clings to Christ soon discovers.
The LORD said to him, "Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel-all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him."
I did not seek out my “slanderous” comrades. I merely kept a record of what I had perceived, witnessed, and experienced, without singling out individuals as targets of hate. When the course of events put me together with others with the same concerns, I discovered I was not alone. I felt like God had a hand in it, because I had given the matter over to Him: to put me together with the people it was necessary for me to find. That’s proof to me through my experiences that we don’t lose fellowship in Christ simply because we are not attached to a particular body of believers. As a result, that passage means a lot to me.
But it should also mean a lot to you. That verse about David and Jonathan, that is straight from the Great Commission playbook, the culminating passage for the Spring 2004 Daylights as penned by Rick Whitney. You’re supposed to want to be Jonathan. This is a story that does not end well for Jonathan, who dies with his father. Jonathan was useful to David, but only in the end was a righteous son. The impact of his covenant was that his children’s lives were spared. What does Jesus say about making an oath? He says quite clearly that anything beyond a yes or no comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5)
This leads me to my final point about discipleship under Christ. In following Christ, observe what he says about teachers and leaders of various dignified titles in Matthew 23. If you are in Christ, he is your ‘discipler’. “Discipler” is a word of recent construct. It is an artificiality which does not appear in your dictionary or your spell-check. Neither does it appear in your Bible. This is a not-word characteristic of a not-religious non-denominational not-church selling not-self-help that’s “not about you.” (The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren). It’s simply not scriptural though it does its best to appear so.
Whoever serves Jesus must follow Jesus, and Rick Warren is no substitute. Whoever studies the Sermon on the Mount and puts it into practice is like a man who built his house on the rock. This includes being watchful of the fruit of a man who spends 20 minutes pointing out who is wise and who isn’t followed immediately by his first mention of Jesus-Matthew 7:24. This includes being watchful of the fruit of those who boast of their works, whether in their own words, or a video they’ve made, or a newspaper they’ve printed.
I realize that a lot of people are anxious about how this will all turn out. I have some myself from time to time, and pray the Lord’s Prayer, letting God Himself have dominion over our troubles now. Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Don’t be so worried about this that you lose your ability to laugh and therefore be less human. I advise these three things again, and find that it is very general and scripturally sound. Don’t over-react. Maintain your relationships. Be Berean (examine the Scriptures daily to ascertain the truth of what you are being taught).
But it’s true-what we do and decide here has an impact on many people’s lives. While I poke some fun, and hope to be around a good long time to do the real brotherly thing and advise you against any future Mrs. Michaud who might fall short of the glory of piracy, I do recognize the time grows shorter and shorter to resolve our differences about these mounting concerns and whether they have a Biblical solution which commends itself to the consciences of all. Whether welcome or not, the time approaches for an accounting before men by those who claim to serve, including myself. If anyone has failed to take an action which would be prescribed to heal this for everyone concerned, now would be a good time. I personally feel that this faction over what is acceptable control might be insurmountable, but I pray that God does something great which covers all transgressions through our love for Him and each other.
I looked everything over and took lots of notes on my hard copy. There’s four pages of ariel 8 to comment on, so I’d like to cut through it as efficiently and concisely as I can. I don’t see anything dishonest about what you’re saying here. It all seems to come consistently from what you’ve said all along. Your main points:
• Friendship is a core Christian value, and a sense of fraternity is implied.
• People make personal sacrifices with regards to their family as a result of their convictions.
• A man without fellowship is like a fish without a bicycle (kidding)
These are all true. No dispute whatsoever. These are fine convictions to have.
I hope you won’t feel too publicly shamed if I point out one of three hypocrisies I noticed-a very small one which I only mention pertinently because it applies to my comments. In one post of five, you simultaneously ask me to remember that your post represents your convictions, not GCM’s; but then go on to speak on behalf of them in response to my verses from 1st John 3: “For my part, amen. On behalf of the current and past leaders serving in GCM.” My hope was that I’d be able to distinguish these comments from the ‘party line’. You do seem to be towing it fairly well, and it speaks directly to some concerns that folks have had about GCM all along. My job here is not to point out that these concerns exist-that’s what the webpage is for. I came to discuss Scripture, and to point out the biblical error that gives rise to cultic accusations. My assertion: when we follow Scripture properly (and as a result shine as a beacon of truth), we commend ourselves to men’s consciences instead of give them pause. (2 Cor 4:2)
The most dangerous point of your convictions which does not stand in contrast to Great Commission teaching: Neglect thy family. This is not something Jesus ever advocates through speech or action. The verse most often pointed to in support of this dangerous teaching is this one: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes, even his own life-he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25) To better understand what this means, you must look to the word used for ‘hate’ in the Greek, miseo. It isn’t kataphroneo which means to disdain-the kind of hate where you stop talking to that person, like we did in Junior High School when there was some kind of juvenile misunderstanding. Miseo implies pursuit, like grandma chasing you down with a rolling pin. The difference between the two words is present in juxtaposition in Luke 16:13. I’m splitting hairs because of some other important things that Jesus did and said with regards to his family values.
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
Your verses from Ruth also oddly corroborate this. While we may very well be called away from them, as Elisha was, we aren’t to treat them with neglect nor disdain.
“That employment to which I have called thee, doth not require an alienation of thy heart from thy parents, nor the total neglect of them.” --1 Kings 19 (John Wesley commentary)
“Elisha came to a resolution presently, but begged a little time, not to ask leave, but only to take leave, of his parents. This was not an excuse for delay, like his (Lu. 9:61) that desired he might bid those farewell that were at home, but only a reservation of the respect and duty he owed to his father and mother. Elijah bade him to back and do it, he would not hinder him; nay, if he would, he might go back, and not return, for any thing he had done to him. He will not force him, nor take him against his will; let him sit down and count the cost, and make it his own act. The efficacy of God's grace preserves the native liberty of man's will, so that those who are good are good of choice and not by constraint, not pressed men, but volunteers.” --1 Kings 19 (Matthew Henry commentary)
Recently, we met someone who really went out on a limb in support of what we’d done, with a lot more to lose than I. Even though there was a certainty of the rightness of the cause, there was also a great sense of the gravity. I have thought to myself, “What have I done to you?" but that may not be the sense you interpret from the words of Elijiah. It’s possible that those words served not only as a reminder.
I found the JFB commentary less than helpful because it skips verses and reduces Elijiah’s initial point of view to “petulance.” This brings me to my second point about isolation, not necessarily from family, but the continued seeming endorsement of only approved relationships. The “out of sight, out of mind” short-sightedness with regards to relationships even within Great Commission has already been noted, and I’ll support the notion that it exists by virtue of my own experience. It seems to me like the tone of your post would support it, too. The fact that you finally did post would be to your credit, and an usually in-depth response differing from what I’ve seen from others. Still, we create barriers to relationship that don’t necessarily appear in the Word, then excuse ourselves for not relating if those people are not present. That, at least, would seem to be the pattern of Great Commission as verified by the evidence currently before us.
[Elijiah] replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too."
My point in bringing up 1st Kings 19 is that people who start to notice something wrong within Great Commission can start to feel isolated-like they are the only one. The most notable breach in our church was the Gregg Walters resignation. The meeting to discuss the implications and concerns of this was held coincidentally with the Sipian’s going-away party. It was no accident. In less prominent situations, folks don’t necessarily have the backing that a Gregg Walters gets, usually aren’t aware that similar things have happened to others. Speaking one’s point of view is discouraged if it would be implicatory to Great Commission. I know because someone stopped me on the street to tell me how unbiblical it would be. This same person called a friend of mine to tell them that they were “walking with the Devil.” Singling out this person, would not be fair, it's only significant because of the response induced. The typical response (yes, it happens enough for there to be a typical response) is to run like Elijiah, afraid. If we are merely “plugged in” as you suggest, this wouldn’t hurt. It doesn’t hurt an appliance to unplug it. The feeling of isolation, having lost one’s closest (sometimes only) friends is the kind of thing that “plugs” don’t cover. But it is a mistaken belief, as a person who clings to Christ soon discovers.
The LORD said to him, "Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel-all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him."
I did not seek out my “slanderous” comrades. I merely kept a record of what I had perceived, witnessed, and experienced, without singling out individuals as targets of hate. When the course of events put me together with others with the same concerns, I discovered I was not alone. I felt like God had a hand in it, because I had given the matter over to Him: to put me together with the people it was necessary for me to find. That’s proof to me through my experiences that we don’t lose fellowship in Christ simply because we are not attached to a particular body of believers. As a result, that passage means a lot to me.
But it should also mean a lot to you. That verse about David and Jonathan, that is straight from the Great Commission playbook, the culminating passage for the Spring 2004 Daylights as penned by Rick Whitney. You’re supposed to want to be Jonathan. This is a story that does not end well for Jonathan, who dies with his father. Jonathan was useful to David, but only in the end was a righteous son. The impact of his covenant was that his children’s lives were spared. What does Jesus say about making an oath? He says quite clearly that anything beyond a yes or no comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5)
This leads me to my final point about discipleship under Christ. In following Christ, observe what he says about teachers and leaders of various dignified titles in Matthew 23. If you are in Christ, he is your ‘discipler’. “Discipler” is a word of recent construct. It is an artificiality which does not appear in your dictionary or your spell-check. Neither does it appear in your Bible. This is a not-word characteristic of a not-religious non-denominational not-church selling not-self-help that’s “not about you.” (The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren). It’s simply not scriptural though it does its best to appear so.
Whoever serves Jesus must follow Jesus, and Rick Warren is no substitute. Whoever studies the Sermon on the Mount and puts it into practice is like a man who built his house on the rock. This includes being watchful of the fruit of a man who spends 20 minutes pointing out who is wise and who isn’t followed immediately by his first mention of Jesus-Matthew 7:24. This includes being watchful of the fruit of those who boast of their works, whether in their own words, or a video they’ve made, or a newspaper they’ve printed.
I realize that a lot of people are anxious about how this will all turn out. I have some myself from time to time, and pray the Lord’s Prayer, letting God Himself have dominion over our troubles now. Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Don’t be so worried about this that you lose your ability to laugh and therefore be less human. I advise these three things again, and find that it is very general and scripturally sound. Don’t over-react. Maintain your relationships. Be Berean (examine the Scriptures daily to ascertain the truth of what you are being taught).
But it’s true-what we do and decide here has an impact on many people’s lives. While I poke some fun, and hope to be around a good long time to do the real brotherly thing and advise you against any future Mrs. Michaud who might fall short of the glory of piracy, I do recognize the time grows shorter and shorter to resolve our differences about these mounting concerns and whether they have a Biblical solution which commends itself to the consciences of all. Whether welcome or not, the time approaches for an accounting before men by those who claim to serve, including myself. If anyone has failed to take an action which would be prescribed to heal this for everyone concerned, now would be a good time. I personally feel that this faction over what is acceptable control might be insurmountable, but I pray that God does something great which covers all transgressions through our love for Him and each other.