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[Tags reflect things in the comments as well as the post itself]
Things I want to write about for Friday Spam:
--Betrayal and the chain of command in Life on Mars
--Stories--seeing our life in them, interpreting our life by them. Sparked off by phoenix64--"Character-bashing" is not the same as "Honest character discussion", and why can't I say that I don ( Read more... )
Things I want to write about for Friday Spam:
--Betrayal and the chain of command in Life on Mars
--Stories--seeing our life in them, interpreting our life by them. Sparked off by phoenix64--"Character-bashing" is not the same as "Honest character discussion", and why can't I say that I don ( Read more... )
IME, it matters considerably *why* the person likes/dislikes the character. There are some characters in my main fandom I can have a civil discussion about, and others I've found that to be impossible about. I've never had a civil discussion about Yoda with a fan of Yoda. Ever. Largely because most fans of Yoda consider him sacrosanct-- not only *an* example of a wise mentor, but *the* archetypal wise mentor. Saying that he's cruel, self-righteous, and manipulative not only offends their perception of a character, but goes to the heart of what they think a wise mentor *is*. I've learned it's just going to bring me wank if I say what I think of him. OTOH, saying that Anakin is "whiny" doesn't seem to bring the same level of vitriol from Anakin fen. He's less iconic to people, I think.
It's when people start using the word "hate" in an aggressive way, reacting to mentions of the character with "hope [they] die,"
*hide* I've been known to wish very ardently that some characters would just get sucked out an airlock and have done. I try to confine those observations to rooms without fans of those characters in them, though. :)
(Interestingly, I've found reality TV forums to be a lot more accepting of both character love and character hate-- with a few exceptions (*cough* So You Think You Can Dance *cough*, but that fandom is full of teenagers)-- than scripted TV/book/movie forums. Maybe because we don't get to see a "character" for long enough to really make a firm connection to them?)
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That does make it hard to have a discussion - a love fest, easy, but if they basically worship the character, then they probably aren't looking for intelligent discussion, just affirmation. Which can be frustrating. I have been a fan of a character who was pretty much worshipped by a certain, well-known group of the fandom, and it was embarrassing to be associated with the hard-liners, because I *was* willing to have reasonable discussions, admit the character's faults, and generally be normal, but the other type of fan made it difficult to even start.
I've been known to wish very ardently that some characters would just get sucked out an airlock and have done. I try to confine those observations to rooms without fans of those characters in them, though.
That's fair - there's nothing wrong with having a bitch session with likeminded folks. :) And I do think tone and context make a difference. If somebody says, "Although personally I wouldn't mourn X if he fell under a bus, I realize that in the story this writer was trying to tell..." yadda yadda, it's different than one person saying, "Here's a picture my kid drew of X!" and somebody jumping on and saying "It's too bad she didn't draw him under a bus!" To use an extreme example. *g*
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See, if you said that to me, I'd ask why you thought that, and you'd give me some examples, and then I'd either agree, or not, but I'd look at those scenes in a different light, and I'd understand a little more about how you view things. A giant part of what I love about fandom discussion is that it gives you so much insight into other people--what they like, what they dislike, what their priorities are--just all kinds of things. (Of course, you can't take it all too seriously. I'm currently crushing heavy on a smoking, drinking, sexist b*st*rd with a violent streak. *cough*)
Er, the point? Um. That discussion is a huge, huge part of being in fandom, and shutting it down is just very counterproductive.
I think reality TV forums might be more accepting than TV/book stuff for the same reason that reality itself is. I don't know what that reason is, but I know that I could walk into anywhere on LiveJournal and make horrible remarks about, to pick a random example, President Bush, and all I'd get would be support. Pretty much the same thing applies to any political figure, or any celebrity. Except President Obama, who is exempt.
But yet, to pick yet another totally random example, I can't say that I think Fraser was sleeping with Ray Kowalski, but not Ray Vecchio.
Why so much protection and outrage over fictional characters, and so much apathy over real people?
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And that makes you awesome! :)
Characters do become very internalized to people, especially if they've been around for 20-30 years and you grew up with them. It can be really hard seeing them another way if they mean that much to you. (Although it would be productive for fans to realize that's the case, and simply offer up "I'm sorry, but X means too much to me to have this conversation about him." You might come off sounding obsessed, but it's better than "OMG HOW DARE YOU HATE HIM!") I am, for instance, finding it a bit challenging to be a newbie to an old fandom. You never know where your newbie observations are treading on something sacred to the oldfen. (Yes, I really am afraid my Dalek!adoration is pissing off you and wabbitseason. Maybe y'all are just too busy to reply, I don't know. But I can tell you I've wondered if I said something wrong. And Gods know what my fairly innocent comments might start if I went to a wider space for that show.)
So I *get* the whole character-as-sacred-cow thing. It's just frustrating if you're the one person in the room who sees something totally different when you watch the show/game/movie. Do my observations count for less than those of Yoda's fans because I dislike him? I mean, "do or do not, there is no try" has always irritated me, and it's beyond fandom-- people genuinely see that as good advice for life. What if disability means that all you can *do* is "try"? Then what? err...sorry, digression! My point is that fandom is inherently cliquish, and discussion that includes pointing out flaws is only okay if it's about *certain* characters and media. Hate "Twilight"? That's okay, everyone else does too. Hate "Firefly"? Oh, you're screwed. I feel bad, too, because I'd like to squee with everyone else. I just can't un-see what I see.
Why so much protection and outrage over fictional characters, and so much apathy over real people?
It's not, IMO, quite the same thing. Reality TV contestants are characters. Many are quite openly acting a part, and if they're not, they're edited in such a way that they end up archetyped just like fictional characters are. (Watch "Total Drama Island" for that, it's a cartoon sendup of "Survivor", and it's *hilarious*. And it's got "the villainess", "the macho guy", "the hot blonde", "the geek", and all the other classic reality character-types.) But I don't think we attach to them as strongly as fans do to scripted-TV characters. We root for them strongly or against them strongly, and then they obligingly go away at the end of the season and we forget all about them. Think Hosea (recent Top Chef winner) is a great guy? People will disagree with you (a lot), but they won't call you names. Love Stefan? (the "villain") People, again, may disagree with you, but the world won't end. People are *passionate* about their favorites and anti-favorites, but not to nearly the same degree. Perhaps people are reluctant to identify with real people, however much they're made into characters? (With, again, the exception of the Dance show, where you nearly had death threats. That was some crazy sh*t.)
But yet, to pick yet another totally random example, I can't say that I think Fraser was sleeping with Ray Kowalski, but not Ray Vecchio.
I'm sorry, but since you brought it up, I gotta say it-- that fandom? CRAZY. I read all the wank off Metafandom, and that was bugnuts. Nobody, period, should have to go through that degree of contortion over an unpopular fannish opinion. Anyone who actually thinks "no F/V, please" is actual oppression needs to get off the internet.
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Ha! No, not at all, I think it's kind of cute, actually. The "over 50 open tabs" that I have? It's on the list. :D (And actually I did wind up ignoring everything except this post tonight, and writing self-indulgent LoM h/c. So it's still a Giant List.)
In Who-fandom, there are triggers, but I don't think Daleks are one of them. Except there are people who think that they've been way overused, and people who love them and can't get enough of them. And that's just about every villain (or hero) ever, really.
If I had given it any thought at all, I'd've guessed that you'd like the Daleks. I wonder what you'll think about the Master...
It's just frustrating if you're the one person in the room who sees something totally different when you watch the show/game/movie
*raises hand* I thought Draco Malfoy was whiny and useless. I read the Draco Trilogy, and I enjoyed it quite a bit, but the Draco in that series wasn't the Draco of JKR's books, he was a Marty Stu of heroic proportions. HP fans can talk about Sexy Evil Draco all they want, but I don't see it. But the thing is, it doesn't hurt me if that's how they want to see it.
I'm sorry, but since you brought it up, I gotta say it-- that fandom? CRAZY.
I didn't realize it until recently, but...yeah. *sighs* 99% of the time I love the politeness of that fandom, people bend over backwards to not offend each other, which is...unusual on the internet, right? And then something like this happens, and you're left wondering if a little less politeness and a lot more honesty might be such a bad thing.
It was like walking through that Lord of the Rings thing. The Dead Marshes, was it? Where everything was quiet and peaceful until somebody poked a stick into the water, and suddenly dead bodies are floating to the surface EVERYWHERE? A mite scary, TBH, particularly for those of us who mostly lurk and don't really feel that we fit in to start with.
Okay, I thought I was over the kerfuffle, but apparently I'm not. *goes off to sit in corner*
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...meaning politely, with excessive courtesy, and attempting to make as little noise as possible. But in the end, someone's still gonna have to launder the long johns.
It started with someone making a post about how Vecchio fans are a marginalized minority, and could all Kowalski fans please remember that they are speaking from a position of privilege and bias, and have a little more sensitivity towards the Vecchio fans. And it went from there. There were some very valid points made, and a lot of people really attempting to see each others points of view. But also a whole lot of scary passive-aggressiveness and a lot of denial of reality.
Now, granted, people saying things like they can't stand to think about Vecchio and Fraser together, that it makes them sick--now that is harsh, and probably should be kept in one's own journal if one absolutely felt that it must be expressed at all. Definitely not in multi-Raycial spaces.
But when people say that they love Vecchio, but that they think he and Fraser were just friends, and they'd prefer not to read F/V, please, and F/V shippers feel that they are being oppressed...well, IMO that's just getting silly, Ray.
It really leaves the Vecchio fans who are not also F/V shippers (or who are, but who are also F/K shippers, and F/V/K, and etc.) out in the cold.
It seems like once it hit Fandom Wank everybody agreed to retreat to corners--e-mail or whatever--and it's quiet now. But to be so polite, it really hit me--and many other people--hard. And it's dumb, because I don't even participate in that fandom much. I just love it a lot.
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Unpacking the invisible Kowalski knapsack? They weren't using this language in jest, they were serious?
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I told myself I wasn't going to look at the Fandom Wank post, but yeah, I fail again. Now I'm just telling myself I'm not going to click on any of the links.
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See, I don't like the idea of judging real people the same way one would a character in a fictional story. Because they *are* a real person, and I'm a real person, and I would hate to be judged the way I've seen fans do with characters. Now there are some celebrities that have more or less signed up for their celebrity, and people are treating them as a character, not a person, and I understand how that happens. I don't consider politicians to be in that category though. We get to know a lot about their lives, and they definitely make mistakes and do things we don't agree with, but I've never understood why those mistakes (well, the personal life ones) are so interesting and important that they merit 24 hour news channel coverage, for instance. I just want public figures to do their job, whether it's being in a movie or making laws, and if they're not doing that properly, then I'll discuss it. But just like with my neighbors, I don't see why the other stuff has to be everybody's business. With a fictional creation, on the other hand, it's the tradition of literary analysis we're talking about. :)
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(And I'm not saying that real people--particularly politicians, who allegedly represent us and work for us--shouldn't be watched and analyzed. I'm just wondering why is it okay to be so horribly rude about them when they are real people, but fictional characters must be Protected from Teh Meen Girlz?)
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Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood the direction of your original question. Yes, I agree: the opposite would make a lot more sense.
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