[Locked to Counil Members, Department Heads and higher-ups]

Sep 16, 2010 20:01

Everyone, we have one matter we really need to work on resolving, especially since we don't know when Stacy may release the next set of crew members ( Read more... )

superman, !attention: council

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starlight_ace September 17 2010, 05:00:58 UTC
I'm sorry, but it's hard to believe I'm actually reading some of the things being said here.

I don't care if someone paid money for her back in their world, but that poor girl isn't property, she's a person! She's a living, breathing being that had something unimaginably cruel done to her for the sake of someone else's selfishness, and how can anyone possibly condone that?!

If the crew and Council of this ship somehow rule that this girl is another person's property just because her birth was in a laboratory, what sort of message does that send? There are clones here as part of the crew, and people are seriously considering marking them as second class citizens? Do you want to tell your crewmates that if someone had happened to pay for their life, they'd be slaves now, and you'd be okay with keeping them in a coma and taking out their organs piece by piece?

Please, tell me you see how horrible that is. If we let Mei-Xing keep this clone...

...please, don't let her. Medical can care for her. Maybe make her comfortable, if she's beyond healing. But she isn't anyone's property. I can't believe people here would ever think that.

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governorkang September 17 2010, 05:17:27 UTC
My kind aren't clones, but we were created from dragon eggs, and many of us were born from one egg, which is rather similar. I have also come extremely close to being used to make actual clones, ones that were dumb as a box of rocks. I worked with some of those clones, briefly, and while I had hope that they would one day regain some part of what they used to be, it never happened. They died within three years.

I'm not making my decision based on the clone's origins. I am making it based on whether or not it even has the possibility of being a person. As far as we know, it doesn't. If proof is found otherwise, I'll reconsider.

The fact of the matter is, the world Mei-Xing is from and the way her magic operates, she does need it. If she didn't, and could make do in an emergency with an organ or limb that Stacy provides her with, then I would advocate destroying the clone.

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starlight_ace September 17 2010, 05:27:32 UTC
The clone isn't an "it," it's a "she." Who are you to judge whether she could "be a person" or not? She's still alive, and the damage that was done to her was part of the horror of creating her in the first place!

If you haven't been down to Medical, they work miracles there. They can probably grow the parts she needs completely from scratch! Haven't they done that before?

I'm sorry, but from what I see, you're advocating keeping a living being in perpetual, unending torment and telling an entire group of the crew that they effectively don't have the same rights that the rest of us do, just for the sake of one singular person on this ship!

If her magic relies on trapping a poor girl in a painful existence like that, then maybe she shouldn't be using it in the first place.

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governorkang September 17 2010, 05:45:13 UTC
From what I've been told, the clone has been in a coma for gods know how many years, and has never been awake. Never. I doubt she is in any pain. She is fully developed, physically, but her brain is, essentially, dead. I highly doubt she will ever be able to function as anything resembling a sentient being.

I know it's possible for Stacy to grow parts. I've received nerve grafts. How long would it take, though? The longer Mei-Xing goes without having an organ or limb replaced, the more stress it puts on her body, and more importantly, her magic. It is far more practical for her to have one immediately usable. And just to be clear, I'm not comfortable with her creating any more clones after this one. She shouldn't need to, unless something extreme happens.

It's a tough decision that not everyone is going to like, but unfortunately, we're in a war. Mei-Xing's magic may be crucial to victory in a future battle. We can't win it if we're dead.

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starlight_ace September 17 2010, 05:55:32 UTC
How can you be sure? Would you stake your conscience on the idea that she isn't in any pain, even in her coma? Can we really take that chance?

I'm sorry, but that line of thinking is a dangerous one. 'It might be necessary to win, so we should do it.' Would you be okay with someone using magic that required a living sacrifice, or the blood of innocent children as a spell reagent? I certainly hope not. Where do we draw the line?

As Department Head of the Magical Department, I fully intend to prohibit the use of magic that requires too high a price to cast. If she is truly unable to use her magic without cannibalizing a girl she calls property, than I believe said magic falls under that category.

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governorkang September 17 2010, 06:03:04 UTC
She's essentially braindead. If I remember right, that means that she can't feel anything.

In all honesty, Miss Takamachi, I would try my best to avoid such a situation, but if it was the only way to save the lives of the people on this ship, I would do it. The life of one is not as important as the lives of many.

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starlight_ace September 17 2010, 06:10:52 UTC
That means that we don't know if she can feel anything. Maybe she isn't conscious, but she's still alive. She still has a central nervous system that keeps her heart beating and all of those organs working. This isn't a risk I'm willing to take.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Councilor Kang. If we're willing to do everything as long as it means victory, though, then I question why we've even considered setting up a system of law and government in the first place.

We have the technology to regrow organs on the ship, and you've seen for yourself just how quickly it works. You've seen for yourself how the medical facilities here can work miracles. If she's injured on an away mission to the point where she needs organ replacement, she'll need to wait until she gets back to the ship, anyway - and by that time, whatever she needs will be there and waiting for her!

It isn't worth it. It isn't worth potentially keeping a poor girl in suspended agony, it isn't worth condoning the sale of human beings as property, and it isn't worth telling an entire section of the crew that their lives aren't as important as our own because of how they were created.

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governorkang September 17 2010, 06:25:12 UTC
She is alive in the sense that she is breathing, and if she's taken off of the machines, she won't even be able to do that for herself.

I'm willing to do whatever it takes for this crew to survive. There is a difference.

I don't agree with slavery, and I don't believe that our clone crewmates aren't as important as the rest because of the nature of their creation. This particular case, though, has some unique details that must be taken into consideration.

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starlight_ace September 18 2010, 02:18:07 UTC
I'm sorry, if there is a difference it doesn't look like much of one.

If you don't agree with slavery, and you don't want people to start thinking that crew members who are clones are second-class citizens, then how can you support the personal possession of one for such selfish reasons, especially when there's an easily accessible alternative?

If any of us need an organ replaced, we'll be in dire straits. Should we all have clones made, then?

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governorkang September 19 2010, 03:41:53 UTC
Do you eat chicken, or beef, or other types of meat, or use products made from other animals? Those animals are alive, too, but they don't get the same consideration that sentient beings do.

She is not sentient, and according to the information at hand, she never will be. That is the difference, Miss Takamachi.

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starlight_ace September 19 2010, 04:30:30 UTC
No, the difference is that she was intentionally and cruelly crippled! I can't believe you'd compare her to an animal used for food - do you have any idea how hurtful that is?

We are not leaving her in the care of Mei-Xing.

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governorkang September 19 2010, 04:49:56 UTC
She won't ever have anything close to the intelligence that those animals I mentioned do, let alone a sentient being. She just happens to look like a sentient being.

Sentient being, not human, Miss Takamachi. Mei-Xing is an elf.

You have your opinion on the matter, as do I, but it has been given over to the Council. It is for us to decide what happens to the clone. Whatever that decision turns out to be, I will abide by it, and would hope that the rest of the crew does as well, otherwise the Council serves no purpose.

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starlight_ace September 20 2010, 01:10:43 UTC
Because of something that was done to her at the request of Mei-Xing. And I never called her a human, did I?

And if the Council passes a decision that sends a clear message to the members of the crew that have been created via artificial means that their existence is lesser - and that is the message that will be sent, regardless of intentions - then... I don't know.

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governorkang September 20 2010, 01:28:41 UTC
You did not call her a human, but you did say that it isn't worth condoning the sale of human beings as property.

I am very well aware that many of the humans on this ship are not from worlds that have a variety of races, and that on your worlds, 'human' does mean 'person'. I am also aware that most of you do not mean to imply that we nonhumans are not people as well; however, that is how it reads.

I may be overreacting, but where I am from, humans and other races did not treat my kind as equals, and did not consider us to be much more than dumb animals. It makes me uncomfortable to hear such human-centric phrasing being used.

This clone is different from the other clones on the ship. She is from a different world, created in a different way. Her circumstances are unique. If the decision is made that this clone is to be allowed to stay with Mei-Xing, it is not the same thing as saying that all clones on this ship are property. I am looking at this objectively. Keep in mind, also, that I was created via artificial means, even if they weren't quite the same.

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starlight_ace September 20 2010, 01:54:45 UTC
That's understandable. I apologize for any offense that may have resulted from my choice. Consider my words revised to "sentient beings, or those with the potential to become so." I hope you find that more appealing.

Kang, can I ask you something? How many clones do you know, personally? How many are you close to?

Whatever your intention in saying that the circumstances with Mei-Xing are different, I can tell you that, as somebody who is very close to several cloned individuals, it does not come across as that. And if it does not come across as that to me, it certainly does not come across as that to those individuals. For them, this is not a question of one poor girl who has been crippled for the rest of her life for the sake of a cruel procedure, but a question of their worth on this ship as people.

Your intentions may be perfectly good. I certainly hope that they are. But the repercussions of that sort of decision are stronger than you know. Especially when her original purpose isn't even necessary.

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governorkang September 20 2010, 02:15:57 UTC
Thank you, Miss Takamachi. I know that you meant no offense by it.

Technically, my kind, at least those of us that are currently adults, are clones. I know, am, and am close to, quite a few of them, including my own mate.

This clone never had the mental faculties, and never will, that other clones on this ship possess. We can't do anything about that. We can, however, prevent any more clones like this from being created, and make sure to treat the clones that are sentient as equals. This one never will be, no matter how much it looks like a sentient being.

Nothing is ever black and white.

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