I think it's your turn to provide a citation. Who says that?
Lots of people I have talked to over the years within the church. Maybe Hugh Nibley? This is organically received info, so I have no citation. Anyone reading this can believe whatever they like - you or someone who has lived it for almost 40 years. :)
Nice to know we've finally gotten to the silly part. I was having trouble figuring out which part was the silly part.
Heh. Yeah, I know. Any religion seems silly to non-religious people, so I accept your comment as a good faith one.
Don't shoot the messenger. Take up this "misinterpretation" with the Quorum of the Twelve, Priesthood Correlation Program, or whoever's telling the LDS.org webmasters to write that stuff down as if it's officially accepted doctrine.
Fair enough. I didn't make myself clear in my own comment, so you are totally fine to call me on it. Let me try again:
Lots of people, both within and without the church have been foreordained to certain tasks. People who have been foreordained were given those tasks because of their righteousness. For instance, we believe the Founding Fathers were foreordained to that time and place to perform that duty. Are they less righteous than a rank and file member born into the LDS religion today? No, that is not what we are saying.
I think the distinction is saying that only the most righteous are born into the church, which the link you posted does not claim. It implies a certain level of righteousness to be foreordained in the first place, but within that framework of general righteousness, there is no implication that being born LDS is the highest foreordination one can aspire to. That is entirely your interpretation.
Does that clarify a little? It should also stand completely in line with the link on foreordination.
Weren't you the one saying that it's not up to us to question the wisdom of the Prophets, since they speak to God and we have to take their word for it? This is what God told your Prophets, the Church accepts it and teaches it. Deal with it.
Nah, you're the one that says we must blindly obey. I never said that. You are telling me how to interpret the teachings of the prophets based on zero time as a member vs me living it for almost 40 years. I'd say of the two of us, I have a far better understanding of the doctrine than you do, standing as an outsider.
We are explicitly taught to study things out, pray, and seek understanding. At certain times with certain things, we simply have to accept and obey, but that is not the rule we live by on a day to day basis. I have some amount of experience with this organic dichotomy.
That's wrong on multiple counts.
First, you'll get to one of the Three Kingdoms faster than she will, because she'll be stuck in spirit prison until someone does her temple work for her. You've already had your temple work done, so you'll be there faster.
Second, it's not simply an issue of who gets to any of the Kingdoms faster, but who ends up in which kingdom. And regardless how good she was, Mother Theresa isn't getting into the Celestial Kingdom without joining the church, performing the saving ordinances, and staying faithful to the oaths and covenants.
If you know otherwise, I invite you to link to the relevant web page on lds.org instead of just making this stuff up or passing off rumor as official doctrine.
You're right, technically speaking. I was using the term "faster" not to imply speed but more to indicate the level of her personal virtue. Perhaps I should have said, "easier"? Or some other word indicating that because she was such a magnificent selfless soul, compared to most of the people I know, this will be a non-issue? I personally believe that her virtue indicates joining the church in the next life to be automatic, so there's no question.
Is that helpful as far as what I was trying to say?
. Perhaps I should have said, "easier"? Or some other word indicating that because she was such a magnificent selfless soul, compared to most of the people I know, this will be a non-issue? I personally believe that her virtue indicates joining the church in the next life to be automatic, so there's no question.
I'm wondering what your characterisation of Mother Theresa as a "magnificent selfless soul" is based on.
I'm wondering what your characterisation of Mother Theresa as a "magnificent selfless soul" is based on.
What she did, what she professed, the sacrifices she made to help those who had no other defender, the life she was willing to live in order to do what she did, etc.
I'm being broad, and I know that wikipedia catalogues some of the issues surrounding her, but I'm willing to accept some of those issues when we see her willingness to help as much as she could.
I'm not casting her as the essence of perfection, but I do recognize that she performed some amazing feats of service throughout her life, even if she was struggling with her faith itself. She still helped those that needed help, regardless.
you're the one that says we must blindly obey. I never said that.
I didn't say "blindly obey". I did (in the next post) say that the Laws of Obedience, Sacrifice, and Consecration basically amount to that.
I also started this series of posts by saying "there’s a difference between what the LDS gospels say, what the general authorities of the Church say, and what most Mormons currently believe and practice." I can't say that all every single Mormon blindly obeys. But I can say not just that the Laws require this, but that when they blew their means and time dog whistle you guys certainly hopped to it.
Lots of people I have talked to over the years within the church. Maybe Hugh Nibley? This is organically received info, so I have no citation. Anyone reading this can believe whatever they like - you or someone who has lived it for almost 40 years. :)
Nice to know we've finally gotten to the silly part. I was having trouble figuring out which part was the silly part.
Heh. Yeah, I know. Any religion seems silly to non-religious people, so I accept your comment as a good faith one.
Don't shoot the messenger. Take up this "misinterpretation" with the Quorum of the Twelve, Priesthood Correlation Program, or whoever's telling the LDS.org webmasters to write that stuff down as if it's officially accepted doctrine.
Fair enough. I didn't make myself clear in my own comment, so you are totally fine to call me on it. Let me try again:
Lots of people, both within and without the church have been foreordained to certain tasks. People who have been foreordained were given those tasks because of their righteousness. For instance, we believe the Founding Fathers were foreordained to that time and place to perform that duty. Are they less righteous than a rank and file member born into the LDS religion today? No, that is not what we are saying.
I think the distinction is saying that only the most righteous are born into the church, which the link you posted does not claim. It implies a certain level of righteousness to be foreordained in the first place, but within that framework of general righteousness, there is no implication that being born LDS is the highest foreordination one can aspire to. That is entirely your interpretation.
Does that clarify a little? It should also stand completely in line with the link on foreordination.
Weren't you the one saying that it's not up to us to question the wisdom of the Prophets, since they speak to God and we have to take their word for it? This is what God told your Prophets, the Church accepts it and teaches it. Deal with it.
Nah, you're the one that says we must blindly obey. I never said that. You are telling me how to interpret the teachings of the prophets based on zero time as a member vs me living it for almost 40 years. I'd say of the two of us, I have a far better understanding of the doctrine than you do, standing as an outsider.
We are explicitly taught to study things out, pray, and seek understanding. At certain times with certain things, we simply have to accept and obey, but that is not the rule we live by on a day to day basis. I have some amount of experience with this organic dichotomy.
That's wrong on multiple counts.
First, you'll get to one of the Three Kingdoms faster than she will, because she'll be stuck in spirit prison until someone does her temple work for her. You've already had your temple work done, so you'll be there faster.
Second, it's not simply an issue of who gets to any of the Kingdoms faster, but who ends up in which kingdom. And regardless how good she was, Mother Theresa isn't getting into the Celestial Kingdom without joining the church, performing the saving ordinances, and staying faithful to the oaths and covenants.
If you know otherwise, I invite you to link to the relevant web page on lds.org instead of just making this stuff up or passing off rumor as official doctrine.
You're right, technically speaking. I was using the term "faster" not to imply speed but more to indicate the level of her personal virtue. Perhaps I should have said, "easier"? Or some other word indicating that because she was such a magnificent selfless soul, compared to most of the people I know, this will be a non-issue? I personally believe that her virtue indicates joining the church in the next life to be automatic, so there's no question.
Is that helpful as far as what I was trying to say?
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I'm wondering what your characterisation of Mother Theresa as a "magnificent selfless soul" is based on.
Reply
What she did, what she professed, the sacrifices she made to help those who had no other defender, the life she was willing to live in order to do what she did, etc.
I'm being broad, and I know that wikipedia catalogues some of the issues surrounding her, but I'm willing to accept some of those issues when we see her willingness to help as much as she could.
I'm not casting her as the essence of perfection, but I do recognize that she performed some amazing feats of service throughout her life, even if she was struggling with her faith itself. She still helped those that needed help, regardless.
Reply
I didn't say "blindly obey". I did (in the next post) say that the Laws of Obedience, Sacrifice, and Consecration basically amount to that.
I also started this series of posts by saying "there’s a difference between what the LDS gospels say, what the general authorities of the Church say, and what most Mormons currently believe and practice." I can't say that all every single Mormon blindly obeys. But I can say not just that the Laws require this, but that when they blew their means and time dog whistle you guys certainly hopped to it.
Reply
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