The Tree of Liberty

[tongodeon]

Popular political quotes often turn out to be fabricated, misattributed, or at very least taken out of context. But the people quoting Thomas Jefferson's famous "tree of liberty" seem to have his words and intent entirely correct. Thomas Jefferson's famous quote, originally written to William Stevens Smith on 13 November 1787, seems to be even more

Comments

[mmcirvin]

I'd never quite twigged to the fact that Jefferson was talking about Shays' Rebellion, and from the perspective of the side that put it down.

He was sort of being an ass, wasn't he? The part where he divides the frequency of rebellions by the number of states is particularly dumb, though I guess it may have seemed less dumb under the Articles of Confederation government.

[grouchyoldcoot]

Wow- this is a really informative piece. Thank you.

[ctd]

I think you misread Jefferson. Note that he sees a longer interval between revolutions as a selling point, and sees a century and a half without one as being pretty good.

And to that point - really, how many countries have gone that long without a revolution? We're five years shy. Canada's gone 170 years, and I think they're an outlier.

[tongodeon]

Note that he sees a longer interval between revolutions as a selling point, and sees a century and a half without one as being pretty good.

I must've totally missed that part, particularly since it's contradicted by saying "God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion."

[ctd]

You missed the sarcasm and the context: And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion.

[tongodeon]

You don't think he's speaking seriously? You think he's being sarcastic? I'd probably be speaking sarcastically if I said "God forbid we go more than 20 years without ignorant, poorly informed people shooting at us" but it seems less clear here. Too bad the smiley emoticon wasn't invented till the late 70s.

[ianvass]

I'm a little confused. Perhaps you can clarify?

I seem to be understanding that your point is that originalism is a stupid concept, and here's proof in one of Jefferson's comments. This particular quote is utterly crazy, and since we have a crazy idea coming from one of the Founders, then originalism needs to be tossed out on its ear completely.

Is this what you are saying?

(Howdy, by the way. :) Been a while since I've posted anything.)

[tongodeon]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Originalism - arguing that the 200 year old original intent of our founders should be more highly privileged than the intent of its current representatives and citizens - is a stupid concept generally speaking. It's especially, egregiously stupid in this particular case.

[theweaselking]

Originalism is the belief that everything the "Founding Fathers" said was smarter than anything modern could be, and that what they wanted is the best of all possible things, and thus what they wanted should always be catered to.

This is an example, one of many, of one of the "Founding Fathers" saying something mindblowingly bugfuck stupid.

This, on it's own, is sufficient to prove that originalism is wrong: the will of the Founders is not, in fact, always correct, moral, or worthy of consideration.

The fact that several centuries of progress since their asses hit the dirt have proved them so thoroughly wrong on a great many OTHER issues, too, simply makes the point further.

Sheesh.

This'll be a tough sell, however factual.

[squidb0i]

My business takes me into many peoples homes.
A significant portion of them are 'Baggers and other flavors of conservative.

If they don't have Fox on the bigscreen up full blast they're sitting in front of their computers listening to some punditard or other wax religious about their particular interpretation of the Constitution. And I do mean religious.

[gaping_asshole]

I grant Jefferson was being a boasting ass, but I think you might be missing his main point

[gaping_asshole]

Sorry, one more thing. I think the most important words Jefferson spoke were the last: "They are natural manure". He's speaking there both of the blood of tyrants and of patriots. He's saying even the blood of real patriots waging violence against real tyranny is shit. This isn't a glorification of violence, it's casting violence off as an irrelevant and uninteresting side effect of a spirited population.

[gaping_asshole]

Oops, I misquoted in that last comment. "They are natural manure" is not what he said. "They are it's natural manure.' Makes the link between the blood and the manure a bit more indirect.