Argh! Laptops! Computer vendors! Die, die, die!
Soo ... my Dell XPS M1330 just died. It's an absolutely fantastic laptop model; not only that, but it'd cost more to replace it with an equivalent-performance model than I paid for it two years ago.
It worked half an hour ago on the train here. I opened it here, and fizz. Vertical coloured lines, no POST, no external display init. GPU fried. Thanks, nVidia.
It's not really Dell's fault; it's an issue with NVidia's 8400M, 8500M and 8600M GPUs that was discovered well after release. See: report. NVidia knew much earlier but kept it hush-hush. However, once the issue did come to light Dell did nothing to act on it until forced, and their "fix" was a driver and BIOS update to lower fan cooling thresholds - in other words, to hopefully delay the failure until the warranty expired. Thanks guys, nice work.
They did extend the warranty by a year. It's not clear if that extension applies if you already have the 3 year warranty, but it'd better.
I'd be frothing and ranting about Dell except that in this regard, every laptop manufacturer I've ever dealt with is exactly as bad. Sometimes they do a great job and handle the issue really well; others they do crap like this.
I still haven't got a straight answer out of them as to whether the spare part will have the same defect as the original or not.
Oh, and Apple fanboys: this is not a good time for you to speak up. I have a list of Apple hardware defects, plus denials and lies about those defects, so long you'll be crying way before I get to the end. Know anyone who got to their fifth iBook motherboard before their warranty ran out? I do, and you probably do to.
Email to dell, email addresses intentionally revealed:
Hi
[CC'd to:
Lionel Menchaca, who's been communicating with customers about
this issue on direct2dell, and:
Mylene Castaneda, who I dealt with on a previous XPS issue and
who I'm aware is able to handle difficult
fault resolution issues.]
I'm deeply concerned about Dell's handling of, and response to, the
8400GS defect issue. The following message details all the information
I've been able to obtain, and the important questions that remain
unanswered.
I'm following up on my support call for ST JVCTR1S, which has a
motherboard failure caused by the nVidia 8400GS manufacturing/design
defect (as confirmed by Dell support).
I tried to confirm whether the replacement motherboard includes a new
8400GS part that is not prone to early failure, ie it is a new revision
that corrects the original design/manufacturing fault.
You were unable to confirm that for me by reference to any definitive
official source, only state that "you believe" it's corrected. While I
realize that's the information you've been given, I'd really like to
have something formally stated in the public record to confirm this for
myself and everybody else.
Apparently Dell KBA 345530 discusses this issue, but it's not available
to customers.
Here's the only official information I've found from Dell on the topic:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/nvidia-gpu-update-limited-warranty-enhancement-details.aspx
... which says nothing about whether the replacement parts have
corrected GPUs or if they still have the same failure-prone
design-defective GPUs on them. Nowhere does it state that the
replacement parts do not suffer from the same defect. There is no
guarantee they won't just die again. Furthermore, it is clear that many
people DO have replacements fail, but it's not clear if those were old
pre-fix inventory, or if there has not been a fix at all, since Dell
provides ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to tell.
On that post there are HUGE numbers of ignored/unanswered questions
regarding whether the replacement parts are actually fixed, and how to
tell. At no point is any answer given as to whether the replacement
parts contain a new revision of the GPU that is not prone to premature
failure.
Despite the lack of any solid information from Dell, I eventually
tracked down a way to identify the faulty part:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=335042
Also:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/258503-33-neck-nvidia
So, what I need to confirm is that the replacement part I'm receiving is
based on the NB8E-SET with Hitachi underfill. Apparently it's also known
as the G84-751.
The only information I have been able to find is an UNOFFICAL quote from
a Resolution Expert Center staff member:
"Q: Can you guarantee that the new motherboard revision does not have a
defective nVidia GPU? It is my understanding that all G84/6 GPUs are
affected by the same manufacturing issue/defect. I also understand
that it isn't only excessive heat that leads to failure, but also
excessive heat cycling leading to fatigue cracking. Has the thermal
interface material and/or thermal cooling assembly of the notebook been
redesigned?
"A: Motherboards with suspect issue are being purged and reworked . The
updated parts should be in factory and should be getting to service but
there is no guarantee at this point that all of service parts are up to
date.
"Q: Can you tell me why the new motherboard revisions are not
susceptible to this issue? Is this a refurbished motherboard?
"A: The new parts have been re-engineered using new materials to correct
the issue. Service part may either new or refurbed parts."
(ref:)
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19437250#19437250
... which tells me NOTHING about how to confirm whether or not the part
I receive is defective or not, and hasn't been confirmed as accurate by
Dell anyway.
Clear and specific questions about this topic that went unanswered on
the Direct2Dell post about this issue (which WAS otherwise being
attended to by support reps) include:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/07/25/94889.aspx?permaPostId=96929#96929
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113691#113691
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113513#113513
Here's one where the rep read and replied to the message, but ignored
the part that asked whether the new board actually fixed the problem
that causes early failures:
http://en.community.dell.com/user/Profile.aspx?UserID=1526398
Here the rep says that "from what [he] understands" it's been fixed on
newly shipping systems. No reference, no link, no responsibility:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19462218#19462218
More ignored questions:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19461961#19461961
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19460905#19460905
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19437269#19437269
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19436249#19436249
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19431093#19431093
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=123852#123852
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=120390#120390
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=114464#114464
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113870#113870
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113691#113691
Lionel Menchaca from Dell posted on the thread right near the end, on 12
Sept 2008, to say:
"Customer: What I can say is this: regardless of when you decide to
order system, we will support you according to your either the system
warranty or the limited-warranty up to 12 months after the system
warranty expires."
In other words, he ABSOLUTELY AVOIDS stating whether or not new systems
have the defect. He just says they'll fix failed systems until the
warranty runs out.
He also said:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113582#113582
"The truth is that the majority of customers with NVIDIA GPUs will never
experience any video-related problems due to this issue. Unfortunately,
that means we'll need to troubleshoot before we replace any hardware."
.. which again fails to confirm whether the prone-to-failure parts are
still being shipped.
nVidia HAS produced a revised part. These parts ARE availible. Is Dell
shipping the REVISED PART WITHOUT THE DEFECT?
--
Craig Ringer
It worked half an hour ago on the train here. I opened it here, and fizz. Vertical coloured lines, no POST, no external display init. GPU fried. Thanks, nVidia.
It's not really Dell's fault; it's an issue with NVidia's 8400M, 8500M and 8600M GPUs that was discovered well after release. See: report. NVidia knew much earlier but kept it hush-hush. However, once the issue did come to light Dell did nothing to act on it until forced, and their "fix" was a driver and BIOS update to lower fan cooling thresholds - in other words, to hopefully delay the failure until the warranty expired. Thanks guys, nice work.
They did extend the warranty by a year. It's not clear if that extension applies if you already have the 3 year warranty, but it'd better.
I'd be frothing and ranting about Dell except that in this regard, every laptop manufacturer I've ever dealt with is exactly as bad. Sometimes they do a great job and handle the issue really well; others they do crap like this.
I still haven't got a straight answer out of them as to whether the spare part will have the same defect as the original or not.
Oh, and Apple fanboys: this is not a good time for you to speak up. I have a list of Apple hardware defects, plus denials and lies about those defects, so long you'll be crying way before I get to the end. Know anyone who got to their fifth iBook motherboard before their warranty ran out? I do, and you probably do to.
Email to dell, email addresses intentionally revealed:
Hi
[CC'd to:
Lionel Menchaca, who's been communicating with customers about
this issue on direct2dell, and:
Mylene Castaneda, who I dealt with on a previous XPS issue and
who I'm aware is able to handle difficult
fault resolution issues.]
I'm deeply concerned about Dell's handling of, and response to, the
8400GS defect issue. The following message details all the information
I've been able to obtain, and the important questions that remain
unanswered.
I'm following up on my support call for ST JVCTR1S, which has a
motherboard failure caused by the nVidia 8400GS manufacturing/design
defect (as confirmed by Dell support).
I tried to confirm whether the replacement motherboard includes a new
8400GS part that is not prone to early failure, ie it is a new revision
that corrects the original design/manufacturing fault.
You were unable to confirm that for me by reference to any definitive
official source, only state that "you believe" it's corrected. While I
realize that's the information you've been given, I'd really like to
have something formally stated in the public record to confirm this for
myself and everybody else.
Apparently Dell KBA 345530 discusses this issue, but it's not available
to customers.
Here's the only official information I've found from Dell on the topic:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/nvidia-gpu-update-limited-warranty-enhancement-details.aspx
... which says nothing about whether the replacement parts have
corrected GPUs or if they still have the same failure-prone
design-defective GPUs on them. Nowhere does it state that the
replacement parts do not suffer from the same defect. There is no
guarantee they won't just die again. Furthermore, it is clear that many
people DO have replacements fail, but it's not clear if those were old
pre-fix inventory, or if there has not been a fix at all, since Dell
provides ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to tell.
On that post there are HUGE numbers of ignored/unanswered questions
regarding whether the replacement parts are actually fixed, and how to
tell. At no point is any answer given as to whether the replacement
parts contain a new revision of the GPU that is not prone to premature
failure.
Despite the lack of any solid information from Dell, I eventually
tracked down a way to identify the faulty part:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=335042
Also:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/258503-33-neck-nvidia
So, what I need to confirm is that the replacement part I'm receiving is
based on the NB8E-SET with Hitachi underfill. Apparently it's also known
as the G84-751.
The only information I have been able to find is an UNOFFICAL quote from
a Resolution Expert Center staff member:
"Q: Can you guarantee that the new motherboard revision does not have a
defective nVidia GPU? It is my understanding that all G84/6 GPUs are
affected by the same manufacturing issue/defect. I also understand
that it isn't only excessive heat that leads to failure, but also
excessive heat cycling leading to fatigue cracking. Has the thermal
interface material and/or thermal cooling assembly of the notebook been
redesigned?
"A: Motherboards with suspect issue are being purged and reworked . The
updated parts should be in factory and should be getting to service but
there is no guarantee at this point that all of service parts are up to
date.
"Q: Can you tell me why the new motherboard revisions are not
susceptible to this issue? Is this a refurbished motherboard?
"A: The new parts have been re-engineered using new materials to correct
the issue. Service part may either new or refurbed parts."
(ref:)
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19437250#19437250
... which tells me NOTHING about how to confirm whether or not the part
I receive is defective or not, and hasn't been confirmed as accurate by
Dell anyway.
Clear and specific questions about this topic that went unanswered on
the Direct2Dell post about this issue (which WAS otherwise being
attended to by support reps) include:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/07/25/94889.aspx?permaPostId=96929#96929
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113691#113691
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113513#113513
Here's one where the rep read and replied to the message, but ignored
the part that asked whether the new board actually fixed the problem
that causes early failures:
http://en.community.dell.com/user/Profile.aspx?UserID=1526398
Here the rep says that "from what [he] understands" it's been fixed on
newly shipping systems. No reference, no link, no responsibility:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19462218#19462218
More ignored questions:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19461961#19461961
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19460905#19460905
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19437269#19437269
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19436249#19436249
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=19431093#19431093
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=123852#123852
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=120390#120390
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=114464#114464
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113870#113870
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113691#113691
Lionel Menchaca from Dell posted on the thread right near the end, on 12
Sept 2008, to say:
"Customer: What I can say is this: regardless of when you decide to
order system, we will support you according to your either the system
warranty or the limited-warranty up to 12 months after the system
warranty expires."
In other words, he ABSOLUTELY AVOIDS stating whether or not new systems
have the defect. He just says they'll fix failed systems until the
warranty runs out.
He also said:
http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2008/09/12/113096.aspx?permaPostId=113582#113582
"The truth is that the majority of customers with NVIDIA GPUs will never
experience any video-related problems due to this issue. Unfortunately,
that means we'll need to troubleshoot before we replace any hardware."
.. which again fails to confirm whether the prone-to-failure parts are
still being shipped.
nVidia HAS produced a revised part. These parts ARE availible. Is Dell
shipping the REVISED PART WITHOUT THE DEFECT?
--
Craig Ringer