Tech Support Hell
I've been using a piece of software for several years called Window Washer. This software is made by a company called Webroot. I've seen Webroot grow from a small company to a much larger company. Most of this growth has been because of another product of theirs called SpySweeper.
The growth of the anti-spyware market and consequent growth of sales of SpySweeper has caused Webroot to change their focus away from Window Washer. However, they still sell and ***support*** Window Washer. Also, the latest version of Window Washer contains at least two bugs. Two bugs I was able to identify within days of installing the product.
Well, I'm hear to tell you, do not buy window washer. It is buggy, and it is clear that they're only supporting it like a "red-headed step child." They're insisting that bugs within window washer are problems with my computer. Lovely.
Below is the log of my support ticket with them. Read it, and see why I'm frustrated.
I really feel like I'm going crazy here.
Start at the bottom, the log is in reverse order:
Solved:
(8/10/2006 1:15 PM MDT) No it is not necessary to have wwsecure run at startup as when you launch window washer it will load when needed. That is all that i can answer from what you are asking.
As far as this being a violation of the users request, I would refer to your license agreement for what you agreed to when installing our software, or any companies software.
I fail to see why you view this as a software bug. All software that runs a service behaves in this manner.
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Action Date Actions CSR /Customer Comment
8/10/2006 1:15 PM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S (See solution)
8/10/2006 12:49 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN I understand about services. My question is not how do services work.
My qustion is more from a business / design point of view, not a technical function point of view. Should I run wwSecure.exe at startup? What benefits do I get?
Why do you have wwsecure as a service? Why have any items start up when the software is configured by the user to not load at startup?
Isn't this a violation of the users request?
I hope you can see why on the surface this looks like a bug, from a user perspective.
We could have avoided a lot of confusion if I was told that this was normal functionality ;-)
-- Joel
8/10/2006 12:14 PM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Wwdisp.exe is the startup item that would be disabled by unchecking the box, wwsecure is the service. I suggest reading more about why services were introduced in NT based systems to answer your question.
No it is not a bug, ALL programs that run a service will have the same behavior. Try making your antivirus software not load at startup, i guarantee that the service (or engine) will still load. That is just the way it is.
Yes if you uncheck load at windows start, reguardless of when, wwsecure will always load unless you disable the service. The same with spy sweeper, unchecking load at windows startup will stop spysweeperui.exe from loading, but the service spysweeper.exe will still load as a service.
The same with your norton antivirus, disable it from startup and then check your services list...their service will still be running. As I stated, this will occur with any software that runs a service.
8/10/2006 12:00 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Okay, now I'm confused.
Lets say I have window washer installed, and I choose, through the WW front-end to not have window washer load at startup. I do this by leaving the "load at startup" checkbox empty.
In this case, should wwsecure.exe start at startup? Yes or No?
If yes, why? What is it doing?
If no, then wouldn't this be a bug?
I'm just trying to find the expected behavior now...
-- Joel
8/10/2006 11:39 AM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Yes, when window washer is not installed, or course wwsecure will not load because the file would have been removed during the uninstall.
Unchecking load at windows startup will stop wwdisp.exe from loading when you start your computer. It does not stop the service (wwsecure).
This is the case with ANY software that runs a service.
To stop wwsecure from loading, open control panel and go to admin tools, then open services. Find Washer security access, right click on it and go to properties. Find the startup type dropdown box and select manual. Click ok and restart your computer. Wwsecure will not load.
8/10/2006 11:04 AM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Just one other point: Bleaching the recycle bin works as expected if the size of contents of the recycle bin is under a certain threshold.
It also works fine with an earlier version of Window Washer.
This specific version of WW seems to have a problem if the size of the files in the recycle bin goes above a certain threshold.
It is unlikely that any other piece of software on my system would result in that type of specific functionality.
-- Joel
8/10/2006 10:56 AM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Mark,
It is as simple as this:
When window washer IS NOT installed, wwSecure.exe does NOT appear after startup.
When window washer IS installed, wwSecure.exe appears after startup... Even though WW is configured to NOT load at startup.
There are three reason that you haven't received millions of complaints of this problem:
1) Anyone who has WW set to load on startup would view wwSecure.exe loading as normal.
2) Most of those who don't fall into group #1 are not technically skilled enough to notice wwSecure.exe
3) wwSecure.exe doesn't seem to have an adverse impact on system performance. Therefore, those few who aren't in group #1 and #2 and who do notice it, may still not bother to report this.
I'm not asking you to test every piece of software out there. My issue for you is very specific: Determine why Window Washer is loading wwSecure.exe at startup, even when it is configured to not load anything at startup.
Mark, I'm a software developer myself, and could be a great asset in helping you solve this problem (assuming you wanted to fix your software). However, you have to put some faith in me. If you insist that this is just a "stupid user error", then we're at an impass.
I'm willing to run most any test you'd like on my PC. How would you like to procede?
-- Joel
8/10/2006 9:26 AM MDT Posted Comment Mark S Each one of those 4000+ items is loaded into memory. So even though your startup is not showing each item there, they are still loaded and can affect things on your system. I understand that you believe the issue is not with your pc. If the problem was a defect in our software we would have millions of customers reporting this same problem rather than one person. Is is literally impossible for us to test against ever piece of software out there and in this case it is most likely some other piece of software on your machine that is protecting your recycle bin and not allowing window washer to bleach it.
8/9/2006 1:28 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Hi Mark,
Most of those startup items are dll's associated with larger applications. It isn't 4000 individual applications. Furthermore, each item in that list is duplicated once with User_Name = .DEFAULT and another time with User_Name = NT AUTHORITY/SYSTEM
I only have 9 applications running at startup. Please take a look at startup.bmp, which I sent on August 1st.
Also, task manager shows only about 20 programs running after startup completes. wwSecure.exe is one of them.
Again, this is a clean install of WinXP with only a handful of programs. I'm not sure why the .nfo file is unusual.
Have you tried to duplicate this on a PC within your test environment?
I'm almost certain this problem is not with my PC. I really think you're chasing a red herring here.
However, I'm willing to play along, till you're convinced this isn't a problem on my PC. I'm a charitable kind of guy. ;-)
-- Joel
8/9/2006 10:24 AM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Hello,
Next thing I would do is try to clear out your startup list. Looking at your winmsd, you have over 4,000 startup items. I would seriously uninstall a lot of programs on your computer that you do not use and try to clean up your system. Literally you have 10 times more startup items that i have ever seen. With that many things running on your computer, it makes it very hard to determine the problem.
8/8/2006 10:00 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN After writing that last message, I decided it would be more efficient for me to download and run Spy Sweeper.
Here is a screenshot from Spy Sweeper confirming that I do not have any Spyware.
I should start charging you guys as a QA consultant :-)
What are the next steps?
Thanks,
-- Joel
spyScan.bmp
8/8/2006 9:30 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN This is a very new installation of windows. I'm reasonably certain that I do not have any spyware on this machine.
Immediately after installing windows, I patched everything up to the latest MS versions. I then installed Norton Internet Security.
Additionally, I practice very safe surfing habbits. I am also behind a hardware firewall. There is no realistic way that this PC could have been infected.
Perhaps you can point out an item that you feel is not legit. I'll look into it and tell you what it does. What do you think should be cleaned?
Also, have you tried duplicating this problem in your QA / Development lab? I'd be surprised if this problem can't be duplicated and tested on a PC at Webroot.
Let me know how you'd like to proceed,
-- Joel
8/8/2006 4:47 PM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Hello,
I suggest starting out by looking for some anti-spyware software. You have a lot of things running on your computer that do not appear to be legit. You can visit www.webroot.com and look into our spy sweeper program. There are a number of other anti-spyware software out there. This may help you in cleaning up your system so we can verify if one of these things are not preventing you from having problems with Window washer.
Thank you
8/5/2006 3:10 AM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN I already provided you with a screenshot of my startup list, retrieved by running the msconfig command. Please review what I sent you on 8/1/2006 6:30 PM MDT (startup.bmp) wwSecure.exe is NOT listed in the startup list.
wwSecure does NOT run at startup after window washer was uninstalled (removed) from my system.
Therefore, wwSecure.exe is a process started by window washer, even when it is NOT configured to load at startup!
Please let me know if I can provide you with any more information to identify and fix this bug.
-- Joel
8/4/2006 4:42 PM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo It looks like you many a huge amount of items that are loading at startup. Are you able to remove the item from the your startup list? You can edit your startup list by going to Start <> RUN <> type msconfig <> Startup <> uncheck the item. It would also be helpful to know if this item still shows up if the Window Washer program is uninstalled.
8/3/2006 5:08 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Here is the be27657@.nfo file. You'll see that wwSecure is listed in the starup programs section.
Just to warn you... Its a huge file (almost 6 megs).
-- Joel
be27657@.nfo
8/3/2006 10:08 AM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo [Click here for details]
8/2/2006 4:42 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Yes, wwSecure.exe is starting up BEFORE I open (run) window washer.
Yes, I am manually able to end the process in the windows task manager (by selecting "end process").
Thanks,
-- Joel
8/2/2006 8:15 AM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo We apologize for the inconvenience. There will most likely not be any updates to the Window Washer program anytime soon. You might try the Bleach option with only one pass and check the recycle bin after restarting the computer.
As for the wwSecure.exe loading at showing up in the processes, is this showing up before opening the program? Are you able to end the process at all?
8/1/2006 6:30 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN No window washer items are in my startup list. I've attached a screen print of my startup tab in msconfig.
Also, are you saying there are no plans to fix the bug causing window washer to fail when bleaching the recycle bin?
Thanks,
-- Joel
startup.bmp
8/1/2006 4:04 PM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo If the Window Washer is having issues with using the bleach option with 7 passes, please run the wash without the bleach option.
As for the startup item, are you able to find in the Windows Startup items?
You can check this by going to the following:
Click Start <> click Run <> type "msconfig" <> click the Startup tab.
7/31/2006 7:15 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Window Washer seems to work properly if bleach is turned off.
Have you been able to reproduce the problem in your test labs?
Also, I have another entirely different problem:
The program wwSecure.exe loads durring startup, even though the "Load Window Washer at Windows startup" is unchecked. I am able to find wwSecure.exe in the task manager after startup, before I load window washer.
Please let me know if I can provide you with more information on either of these problems.
-- Joel
7/31/2006 6:13 PM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo What results to you have when you do not have the bleach option turned on?
7/31/2006 11:45 AM MDT Reopened Joel RICHMAN I reinstalled Window Washer using the download provided. I still have the same problem.
1) Window Washer says completed while the status of some wash items is still "pending"
2) The trash bin is not actually emptied. Immediately after wash, I can still take a file from the recycle bin, and access it as normal.
I am attaching a screen shot of my bug. Notice the status of window washer, as well as the fact that the recycle bin still looks "full".
FYI, I am washing with Bleach (7 pass). I am also washing slack space.
-- Joel
-- Joel
The growth of the anti-spyware market and consequent growth of sales of SpySweeper has caused Webroot to change their focus away from Window Washer. However, they still sell and ***support*** Window Washer. Also, the latest version of Window Washer contains at least two bugs. Two bugs I was able to identify within days of installing the product.
Well, I'm hear to tell you, do not buy window washer. It is buggy, and it is clear that they're only supporting it like a "red-headed step child." They're insisting that bugs within window washer are problems with my computer. Lovely.
Below is the log of my support ticket with them. Read it, and see why I'm frustrated.
I really feel like I'm going crazy here.
Start at the bottom, the log is in reverse order:
Solved:
(8/10/2006 1:15 PM MDT) No it is not necessary to have wwsecure run at startup as when you launch window washer it will load when needed. That is all that i can answer from what you are asking.
As far as this being a violation of the users request, I would refer to your license agreement for what you agreed to when installing our software, or any companies software.
I fail to see why you view this as a software bug. All software that runs a service behaves in this manner.
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Action Date Actions CSR /Customer Comment
8/10/2006 1:15 PM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S (See solution)
8/10/2006 12:49 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN I understand about services. My question is not how do services work.
My qustion is more from a business / design point of view, not a technical function point of view. Should I run wwSecure.exe at startup? What benefits do I get?
Why do you have wwsecure as a service? Why have any items start up when the software is configured by the user to not load at startup?
Isn't this a violation of the users request?
I hope you can see why on the surface this looks like a bug, from a user perspective.
We could have avoided a lot of confusion if I was told that this was normal functionality ;-)
-- Joel
8/10/2006 12:14 PM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Wwdisp.exe is the startup item that would be disabled by unchecking the box, wwsecure is the service. I suggest reading more about why services were introduced in NT based systems to answer your question.
No it is not a bug, ALL programs that run a service will have the same behavior. Try making your antivirus software not load at startup, i guarantee that the service (or engine) will still load. That is just the way it is.
Yes if you uncheck load at windows start, reguardless of when, wwsecure will always load unless you disable the service. The same with spy sweeper, unchecking load at windows startup will stop spysweeperui.exe from loading, but the service spysweeper.exe will still load as a service.
The same with your norton antivirus, disable it from startup and then check your services list...their service will still be running. As I stated, this will occur with any software that runs a service.
8/10/2006 12:00 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Okay, now I'm confused.
Lets say I have window washer installed, and I choose, through the WW front-end to not have window washer load at startup. I do this by leaving the "load at startup" checkbox empty.
In this case, should wwsecure.exe start at startup? Yes or No?
If yes, why? What is it doing?
If no, then wouldn't this be a bug?
I'm just trying to find the expected behavior now...
-- Joel
8/10/2006 11:39 AM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Yes, when window washer is not installed, or course wwsecure will not load because the file would have been removed during the uninstall.
Unchecking load at windows startup will stop wwdisp.exe from loading when you start your computer. It does not stop the service (wwsecure).
This is the case with ANY software that runs a service.
To stop wwsecure from loading, open control panel and go to admin tools, then open services. Find Washer security access, right click on it and go to properties. Find the startup type dropdown box and select manual. Click ok and restart your computer. Wwsecure will not load.
8/10/2006 11:04 AM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Just one other point: Bleaching the recycle bin works as expected if the size of contents of the recycle bin is under a certain threshold.
It also works fine with an earlier version of Window Washer.
This specific version of WW seems to have a problem if the size of the files in the recycle bin goes above a certain threshold.
It is unlikely that any other piece of software on my system would result in that type of specific functionality.
-- Joel
8/10/2006 10:56 AM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Mark,
It is as simple as this:
When window washer IS NOT installed, wwSecure.exe does NOT appear after startup.
When window washer IS installed, wwSecure.exe appears after startup... Even though WW is configured to NOT load at startup.
There are three reason that you haven't received millions of complaints of this problem:
1) Anyone who has WW set to load on startup would view wwSecure.exe loading as normal.
2) Most of those who don't fall into group #1 are not technically skilled enough to notice wwSecure.exe
3) wwSecure.exe doesn't seem to have an adverse impact on system performance. Therefore, those few who aren't in group #1 and #2 and who do notice it, may still not bother to report this.
I'm not asking you to test every piece of software out there. My issue for you is very specific: Determine why Window Washer is loading wwSecure.exe at startup, even when it is configured to not load anything at startup.
Mark, I'm a software developer myself, and could be a great asset in helping you solve this problem (assuming you wanted to fix your software). However, you have to put some faith in me. If you insist that this is just a "stupid user error", then we're at an impass.
I'm willing to run most any test you'd like on my PC. How would you like to procede?
-- Joel
8/10/2006 9:26 AM MDT Posted Comment Mark S Each one of those 4000+ items is loaded into memory. So even though your startup is not showing each item there, they are still loaded and can affect things on your system. I understand that you believe the issue is not with your pc. If the problem was a defect in our software we would have millions of customers reporting this same problem rather than one person. Is is literally impossible for us to test against ever piece of software out there and in this case it is most likely some other piece of software on your machine that is protecting your recycle bin and not allowing window washer to bleach it.
8/9/2006 1:28 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Hi Mark,
Most of those startup items are dll's associated with larger applications. It isn't 4000 individual applications. Furthermore, each item in that list is duplicated once with User_Name = .DEFAULT and another time with User_Name = NT AUTHORITY/SYSTEM
I only have 9 applications running at startup. Please take a look at startup.bmp, which I sent on August 1st.
Also, task manager shows only about 20 programs running after startup completes. wwSecure.exe is one of them.
Again, this is a clean install of WinXP with only a handful of programs. I'm not sure why the .nfo file is unusual.
Have you tried to duplicate this on a PC within your test environment?
I'm almost certain this problem is not with my PC. I really think you're chasing a red herring here.
However, I'm willing to play along, till you're convinced this isn't a problem on my PC. I'm a charitable kind of guy. ;-)
-- Joel
8/9/2006 10:24 AM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Hello,
Next thing I would do is try to clear out your startup list. Looking at your winmsd, you have over 4,000 startup items. I would seriously uninstall a lot of programs on your computer that you do not use and try to clean up your system. Literally you have 10 times more startup items that i have ever seen. With that many things running on your computer, it makes it very hard to determine the problem.
8/8/2006 10:00 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN After writing that last message, I decided it would be more efficient for me to download and run Spy Sweeper.
Here is a screenshot from Spy Sweeper confirming that I do not have any Spyware.
I should start charging you guys as a QA consultant :-)
What are the next steps?
Thanks,
-- Joel
spyScan.bmp
8/8/2006 9:30 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN This is a very new installation of windows. I'm reasonably certain that I do not have any spyware on this machine.
Immediately after installing windows, I patched everything up to the latest MS versions. I then installed Norton Internet Security.
Additionally, I practice very safe surfing habbits. I am also behind a hardware firewall. There is no realistic way that this PC could have been infected.
Perhaps you can point out an item that you feel is not legit. I'll look into it and tell you what it does. What do you think should be cleaned?
Also, have you tried duplicating this problem in your QA / Development lab? I'd be surprised if this problem can't be duplicated and tested on a PC at Webroot.
Let me know how you'd like to proceed,
-- Joel
8/8/2006 4:47 PM MDT Suggested Solution Mark S Hello,
I suggest starting out by looking for some anti-spyware software. You have a lot of things running on your computer that do not appear to be legit. You can visit www.webroot.com and look into our spy sweeper program. There are a number of other anti-spyware software out there. This may help you in cleaning up your system so we can verify if one of these things are not preventing you from having problems with Window washer.
Thank you
8/5/2006 3:10 AM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN I already provided you with a screenshot of my startup list, retrieved by running the msconfig command. Please review what I sent you on 8/1/2006 6:30 PM MDT (startup.bmp) wwSecure.exe is NOT listed in the startup list.
wwSecure does NOT run at startup after window washer was uninstalled (removed) from my system.
Therefore, wwSecure.exe is a process started by window washer, even when it is NOT configured to load at startup!
Please let me know if I can provide you with any more information to identify and fix this bug.
-- Joel
8/4/2006 4:42 PM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo It looks like you many a huge amount of items that are loading at startup. Are you able to remove the item from the your startup list? You can edit your startup list by going to Start <> RUN <> type msconfig <> Startup <> uncheck the item. It would also be helpful to know if this item still shows up if the Window Washer program is uninstalled.
8/3/2006 5:08 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Here is the be27657@.nfo file. You'll see that wwSecure is listed in the starup programs section.
Just to warn you... Its a huge file (almost 6 megs).
-- Joel
be27657@.nfo
8/3/2006 10:08 AM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo [Click here for details]
8/2/2006 4:42 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Yes, wwSecure.exe is starting up BEFORE I open (run) window washer.
Yes, I am manually able to end the process in the windows task manager (by selecting "end process").
Thanks,
-- Joel
8/2/2006 8:15 AM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo We apologize for the inconvenience. There will most likely not be any updates to the Window Washer program anytime soon. You might try the Bleach option with only one pass and check the recycle bin after restarting the computer.
As for the wwSecure.exe loading at showing up in the processes, is this showing up before opening the program? Are you able to end the process at all?
8/1/2006 6:30 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN No window washer items are in my startup list. I've attached a screen print of my startup tab in msconfig.
Also, are you saying there are no plans to fix the bug causing window washer to fail when bleaching the recycle bin?
Thanks,
-- Joel
startup.bmp
8/1/2006 4:04 PM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo If the Window Washer is having issues with using the bleach option with 7 passes, please run the wash without the bleach option.
As for the startup item, are you able to find in the Windows Startup items?
You can check this by going to the following:
Click Start <> click Run <> type "msconfig" <> click the Startup tab.
7/31/2006 7:15 PM MDT Provided Info Joel RICHMAN Window Washer seems to work properly if bleach is turned off.
Have you been able to reproduce the problem in your test labs?
Also, I have another entirely different problem:
The program wwSecure.exe loads durring startup, even though the "Load Window Washer at Windows startup" is unchecked. I am able to find wwSecure.exe in the task manager after startup, before I load window washer.
Please let me know if I can provide you with more information on either of these problems.
-- Joel
7/31/2006 6:13 PM MDT Suggested Solution Nama Illo What results to you have when you do not have the bleach option turned on?
7/31/2006 11:45 AM MDT Reopened Joel RICHMAN I reinstalled Window Washer using the download provided. I still have the same problem.
1) Window Washer says completed while the status of some wash items is still "pending"
2) The trash bin is not actually emptied. Immediately after wash, I can still take a file from the recycle bin, and access it as normal.
I am attaching a screen shot of my bug. Notice the status of window washer, as well as the fact that the recycle bin still looks "full".
FYI, I am washing with Bleach (7 pass). I am also washing slack space.
-- Joel
-- Joel