Ah, yeah, alright. I'll look for it on the second viewing.
'And neither of those excuses why the beam splits'
Refractory physics and the use of a refractory chamber in the ignition firing sequence is my guess. Yes, I know someone who works with lasers, no I have no idea what the hell they'd be using in place of mirrors on this. The accuracy displayed is phenomenal, but super-science and super-engineering are there for just those things.
'or why "The Republic" is only 5 planets'
Seat of government planets only? No idea, the Empire was massive, even a splinter of it would be a sizable portion of available habitable planets numbering in the hundreds.
'why 100% of all Republic Navy ships are docked on those planets at the time'
They were?
'where they got the power for the first shot'
Pre-charged?
'why they didn't reload immediately'
Nope, no idea here either, other than they didn't have a plan prior to this and had to check with the head honcho before using his toy.
'why they didn't move'
Got nothing for this. It is tactically a really good idea to reposition once you've sniped something. Artillery doesn't move, but usually has a massive screening force *already deployed* to protect it and with Hyperspace, we've seen how effective *that* is.
'how the Resistance can see what's happening in the far-off system in real-time'
I'm hoping for spy satellites with FTL comms.
'why nobody suspected that a planetary engineering project from a dangerous cult'
They... weren't a cult. They were what was left of the infrastructure of the Empire still standing and looking to orient on the familiar. Like, Eastern Roman Empire? East Germany? No, not as big as the original. Still bloody massive as a share of the former Galactic Empire. My thought was that it was in a Cold War scenario with the Republic and a hot war against the Resistance. Until they said 'lolnope' and nuked the (New?) Republic's primary planets with their mega weapon that they may have made in the open? Secret? Who knows.
Anyways, they had a tax base that was large enough, and leftover infrastructure to pull it off. Just... the average citizen will probably look like a peasant. Oh, hai there, Jakka!
...and now they have a war on their hands that they were prepared for before their superweapon got blowed up. So, next question - how many of those troops got off-planet(/weapon?) before it blowed? Where the heck are they going to go? What are the strategic implications of losing a massive base planet, for logistics and resupply (ie., did they just create a 2 million hobo army?), what does the Republic or Resistance have to fight back with?
'why 100% of all Republic Navy ships are docked on those planets at the time'
They were?
Part of General Hitlerface's speech was about how they would be destroying the Republic navy, and then Leia (or someone else with her in the briefing? I forget?) mentions there's no Republic navy to call on for reinforcements which is why it's only the Resistance's total of 30 tiny ships attacking the new Death Star.
'where they got the power for the first shot'
Pre-charged?
And NOBODY NOTICED THEM EATING THE FIRST STAR? (Yeah, okay, the universe is big so they probably just ate a small out of the way one that nobody was looking at)
I'm hoping for spy satellites with FTL comms.
The problem is FTL comms are apparently *supremely* expensive in the Star Wars universe. You know who we see using those in the first 6 movies?
The Emperor, in his palace on Coruscant. Darth Vader on the Executor, flagship of the Empire. Which has to stop it's current mission and devote resources to being able to do it. The Queen of Naboo's chancellor, in charge of her planet, from her palace. The Senate's head message office (NOT any individual senator) The leaders of the Trade Federation.
The only people using two-way FTL communications in Star Wars are *phenomenally* rich and powerful individuals, and it evidently requires significant resources to pull off. Everyone else uses couriers. Death Star plans are carried by hand. Messages are recorded and delivered in person. People in hyperspace can't receive messages, not even a go/no go. Admiral Ackbar and the Rebellion fleet have to *guess how long it will take the strike team to take the shield generator down*, and can't even expect to have gotten a "yup we got it" SMS.
And in TAF, there's Supreme Leader Gollum, who has an Emperor-style communication chamber that, again, only he uses, and only to speak to his apprentice and General Hitlerface. It would be super-handy to have real-time communications for the armies of the First Order, but they're not using it for that. It is reserved ONLY for the personal messages of the Supreme Leader.
And then, a bunch of spies in a bar pull out their cellphones and deliver interstellar FTL messages, resulting in the New Order arriving almost immediately (faster than a one-way trip in the Millennium Falcon - not only did they arrive *too* fast, period, but they arrived way too fast for a courier to have made it a ROUND trip) and the Resistance arriving very shortly after. And then Leia can watch something happening in another system in real time, and she can call up Captain Goodhair the fighter pilot who is in hyperspace and do two-way communications with a stuntfighter in the middle of a dogfight. Why? Because JJ Abrams, writer, is not only not interested in making his work consistent with itself, he appears to get a perverse thrill from making things *deliberately* not make any goddamn sense whatsoever.
See also: The Klingon Homeworld is now canonically farther from the Earth than Mars' closest approach, but closer to the Earth than Jupiter's.
One note: Leia's point about not having the Republic Navy to call on, wasn't because it was destroyed. It's because 'The Resistance' != 'The Republic'. The Republic doesn't see the First Order as a threat so the Resistance was established with covert Rebellion support, but nothing more. And apparently, despite y'know blowing up planets, that situation didn't change by the time they needed to act against StarKiller Base.
General Hitlerface to troops: We shall destroy the Republic navy! Fire! [fires] General Hitlerface to Supreme Leader Gollum: We have destroyed the Republic and it's navy! Stargate Universe Guy: There's no Republic navy to help us!
If they wanted it to be "the Republic Navy is unable to get here in time" (blatantly false, given other travel times), they should have said so. If it was "The Republic Navy has no orders to help us" (probably true!) they should have said so. If it was "We've called the Republic Navy but they're in disarray and haven't responded yet" they should have said so.
I'm just saying, "there's still a Republic" and "there's still a Republic Navy" are both statements that are unsupported by the film itself, even though they *should* be true.
I might be misremembering what the dialog was - but I don't think I am, because I remember thinking "what? that makes NO SENSE AT ALL" at the time, too.
Anyways, they had a tax base that was large enough, and leftover infrastructure to pull it off.
Then why did they only have one Star Destroyer?
So, next question - how many of those troops got off-planet(/weapon?) before it blowed?
Bonus one for you. Kylo Ren is lying bleeding in a forest, right next to a collapsing cliff, on a planet that will *in the next two minutes* explode. General Hitlerface receives orders to get in a shuttle, leave the base, pick up Ren, and return to the Supreme Leader.
How does he even *find* Ren before the planet blows up? Nobody knows where he went! Nobody knows what happened to him! There's NO TIME for a rescue, even if General Hitlerface leaves immediately, flies directly to Ren's body, and scoops it up. The only reason Rey *barely* makes it aboard the Falcon and away from the planet is that it's right there (they were ALMOST to the Falcon when Ren intercepted them) and Chewbacca has been A) noticing the planet-gonna-explode signs and prepping a rescue and B) following the distinctive energy signatures of a lightsaber battle nearby, figuring that if his side loses at least he can blast the winner with the ventral cannons before taking off.
And yet, I strongly suspect the next movie will *not* begin with "Oh, yeah, Kylo Ren died when the planet exploded because we couldn't find him, here is Bob Ren the new dark Jedi."
The worst thing is, despite all this I still really liked the movie. It just makes *no sense*, even for a Star Wars movie.
In my headcanon, the First Order's head of property management threatened to eviscerate everyone if he-of-the-property-destroying-tantrum and the lightsaber did not have a tracking device sewn into his clothes so they could keep track of where they needed to allocate extra maintenance resources to.
(I mean, initially I thought attached to his lightsaber, but he's probably really attached to that thing. Zero chance he does his own laundry, mind.)
This doesn't mean there was time to get there and rescue him, but it does fuel my happy little "and this is how the Damage Control company would work in the Star Wars universe" head-canon, so there's that. :)
'Part of General Hitlerface's speech was about how they would be destroying the Republic navy'
Well, okay - just a speech, but...
'mentions there's no Republic navy to call on for reinforcements'
Nrr... with Hyperspace working the way it is in this movie, range isn't an issue, just deployment, and you bet "Firing on allied planets" would get their attention, nevermind the whole blowing up (New?) Republic planets thing... yeah, alright. So they hit major infrastructure and fleet resources in that shot. Still... only five?
'And NOBODY NOTICED THEM EATING THE FIRST STAR?'
We just happened to see them tapping out this star - it could have been used plenty prior to this engagement. The storage system must be pretty dense.
'You know who we see using those in the first 6 movies?'
Snorkel-Spy in Ep IV...
'a bunch of spies in a bar pull out their cellphones and deliver interstellar FTL messages'
I'm stretching here, but possibly relayed to a central comm hub that then compresses the most vital distilled intel and squirts it forward from there to a FTL comm relay someplace near-ish in-system. The strike force was already in-system and just waiting for orders or were commandeered when rich intel gave them a target.
I'm guessing it's a bandwidth issue and not a comm console issue; most of the displays are hand-held, and the comms are at least yacht-portable.
'And then Leia can watch something happening in another system in real time, and she can call up Captain Goodhair the fighter pilot who is in hyperspace and do two-way communications with a stuntfighter in the middle of a dogfight. Why?'
Yeah, I got nothing. Maybe she got a really good plan or knows the owner of the local FTL Telecom company?
'See also: The Klingon Homeworld is now canonically farther from the Earth than Mars' closest approach, but closer to the Earth than Jupiter's.'
I'll Vader!No that.
'Then why did they only have one Star Destroyer?'
Space is big. Ren and Commander Hair only have so many resources at their disposal, along with the Starkiller Base. Maybe they underbid their requisitions? Empire's a *lot* of space to control, even a piece of it.
'Bonus one for you. Kylo Ren is lying bleeding in a forest, right next to a collapsing cliff, on a planet that will *in the next two minutes* explode. General Hitlerface receives orders to get in a shuttle, leave the base, pick up Ren, and return to the Supreme Leader.'
Yeah, time isn't exactly consistent there. Han says they're a half-hour out, the main weapon is about to fire in twenty, they fuck around for over a half-hour while it's charging... yeahno, I'm not paying attention to their timescales.
'How does he even *find* Ren before the planet blows up?'
I'm going with Torrain's theory of Ren having his own guard that watches him with the eye of a Sargeant-Major. Lets him have his tantrums, cleans up his messes, tracks his every move, lets him learn from his mistakes, picks him up when the planet he's on is about to blow...
'The worst thing is, despite all this I still really liked the movie. It just makes *no sense*, even for a Star Wars movie.'
Oh crikey, tell me about it. I'm arguing these points mostly to keep the feeling going, to sort what I saw out, and revel in the novelty of having this experience of a New And Decent Star Wars film in my lifetime as an adult. The problems will... well, be dealt with by the books I suspect. Possibly by some throwaway lines in the upcoming movies.
I suspect Rogue Squadron will help establish the role of the Republic and Resistance and the First Order in the Galaxy.
'You know who we see using those in the first 6 movies?'
Snorkel-Spy in Ep IV...
You mean the guy ON TATOOINE who spots the droids who are wanted fugitives ON TATOOINE and calls the Star Destroyer in orbit AROUND TATOOINE to turn them in to the Storm Troopers who are already ON TATOOINE?
I don't think he's a credible case for FTL cellphone.
(If you mean someone else, I don't recall. The Probe Droids in Empire send back data, but there's no sign that it's any more FTL than hyperspace travel and it's definitely not two-way realtime like the ones I was mentioning.)
Han says they're a half-hour out, the main weapon is about to fire in twenty, they fuck around for over a half-hour while it's charging... yeahno, I'm not paying attention to their timescales.
The problem isn't that YOU'RE not paying attention to them, it's that JJ Abrams *was* paying attention to them... and made sure to specify all those details. All those clearly wrong, clearly impossible, clearly stupid details.
'And neither of those excuses why the beam splits'
Refractory physics and the use of a refractory chamber in the ignition firing sequence is my guess. Yes, I know someone who works with lasers, no I have no idea what the hell they'd be using in place of mirrors on this. The accuracy displayed is phenomenal, but super-science and super-engineering are there for just those things.
'or why "The Republic" is only 5 planets'
Seat of government planets only? No idea, the Empire was massive, even a splinter of it would be a sizable portion of available habitable planets numbering in the hundreds.
'why 100% of all Republic Navy ships are docked on those planets at the time'
They were?
'where they got the power for the first shot'
Pre-charged?
'why they didn't reload immediately'
Nope, no idea here either, other than they didn't have a plan prior to this and had to check with the head honcho before using his toy.
'why they didn't move'
Got nothing for this. It is tactically a really good idea to reposition once you've sniped something. Artillery doesn't move, but usually has a massive screening force *already deployed* to protect it and with Hyperspace, we've seen how effective *that* is.
'how the Resistance can see what's happening in the far-off system in real-time'
I'm hoping for spy satellites with FTL comms.
'why nobody suspected that a planetary engineering project from a dangerous cult'
They... weren't a cult. They were what was left of the infrastructure of the Empire still standing and looking to orient on the familiar. Like, Eastern Roman Empire? East Germany? No, not as big as the original. Still bloody massive as a share of the former Galactic Empire. My thought was that it was in a Cold War scenario with the Republic and a hot war against the Resistance. Until they said 'lolnope' and nuked the (New?) Republic's primary planets with their mega weapon that they may have made in the open? Secret? Who knows.
Anyways, they had a tax base that was large enough, and leftover infrastructure to pull it off. Just... the average citizen will probably look like a peasant. Oh, hai there, Jakka!
...and now they have a war on their hands that they were prepared for before their superweapon got blowed up. So, next question - how many of those troops got off-planet(/weapon?) before it blowed? Where the heck are they going to go? What are the strategic implications of losing a massive base planet, for logistics and resupply (ie., did they just create a 2 million hobo army?), what does the Republic or Resistance have to fight back with?
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They were?
Part of General Hitlerface's speech was about how they would be destroying the Republic navy, and then Leia (or someone else with her in the briefing? I forget?) mentions there's no Republic navy to call on for reinforcements which is why it's only the Resistance's total of 30 tiny ships attacking the new Death Star.
'where they got the power for the first shot'
Pre-charged?
And NOBODY NOTICED THEM EATING THE FIRST STAR?
(Yeah, okay, the universe is big so they probably just ate a small out of the way one that nobody was looking at)
I'm hoping for spy satellites with FTL comms.
The problem is FTL comms are apparently *supremely* expensive in the Star Wars universe. You know who we see using those in the first 6 movies?
The Emperor, in his palace on Coruscant.
Darth Vader on the Executor, flagship of the Empire. Which has to stop it's current mission and devote resources to being able to do it.
The Queen of Naboo's chancellor, in charge of her planet, from her palace.
The Senate's head message office (NOT any individual senator)
The leaders of the Trade Federation.
The only people using two-way FTL communications in Star Wars are *phenomenally* rich and powerful individuals, and it evidently requires significant resources to pull off. Everyone else uses couriers. Death Star plans are carried by hand. Messages are recorded and delivered in person. People in hyperspace can't receive messages, not even a go/no go. Admiral Ackbar and the Rebellion fleet have to *guess how long it will take the strike team to take the shield generator down*, and can't even expect to have gotten a "yup we got it" SMS.
And in TAF, there's Supreme Leader Gollum, who has an Emperor-style communication chamber that, again, only he uses, and only to speak to his apprentice and General Hitlerface. It would be super-handy to have real-time communications for the armies of the First Order, but they're not using it for that. It is reserved ONLY for the personal messages of the Supreme Leader.
And then, a bunch of spies in a bar pull out their cellphones and deliver interstellar FTL messages, resulting in the New Order arriving almost immediately (faster than a one-way trip in the Millennium Falcon - not only did they arrive *too* fast, period, but they arrived way too fast for a courier to have made it a ROUND trip) and the Resistance arriving very shortly after. And then Leia can watch something happening in another system in real time, and she can call up Captain Goodhair the fighter pilot who is in hyperspace and do two-way communications with a stuntfighter in the middle of a dogfight. Why? Because JJ Abrams, writer, is not only not interested in making his work consistent with itself, he appears to get a perverse thrill from making things *deliberately* not make any goddamn sense whatsoever.
See also: The Klingon Homeworld is now canonically farther from the Earth than Mars' closest approach, but closer to the Earth than Jupiter's.
(continued in part 2)
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(Extra thing while on the topic of actors: The stormtrooper who releases Rey, the one who drops his gun and leaves the door open? Daniel Craig.)
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[fires]
General Hitlerface to Supreme Leader Gollum: We have destroyed the Republic and it's navy!
Stargate Universe Guy: There's no Republic navy to help us!
If they wanted it to be "the Republic Navy is unable to get here in time" (blatantly false, given other travel times), they should have said so. If it was "The Republic Navy has no orders to help us" (probably true!) they should have said so. If it was "We've called the Republic Navy but they're in disarray and haven't responded yet" they should have said so.
I'm just saying, "there's still a Republic" and "there's still a Republic Navy" are both statements that are unsupported by the film itself, even though they *should* be true.
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Well fine, if you insist on being right, just be right then.
:)
Nothing in my memory of the film counters your statements. I guess I'll just need to rewatch it to see if you're wrong (you're probably not wrong).
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Anyways, they had a tax base that was large enough, and leftover infrastructure to pull it off.
Then why did they only have one Star Destroyer?
So, next question - how many of those troops got off-planet(/weapon?) before it blowed?
Bonus one for you. Kylo Ren is lying bleeding in a forest, right next to a collapsing cliff, on a planet that will *in the next two minutes* explode. General Hitlerface receives orders to get in a shuttle, leave the base, pick up Ren, and return to the Supreme Leader.
How does he even *find* Ren before the planet blows up? Nobody knows where he went! Nobody knows what happened to him! There's NO TIME for a rescue, even if General Hitlerface leaves immediately, flies directly to Ren's body, and scoops it up. The only reason Rey *barely* makes it aboard the Falcon and away from the planet is that it's right there (they were ALMOST to the Falcon when Ren intercepted them) and Chewbacca has been A) noticing the planet-gonna-explode signs and prepping a rescue and B) following the distinctive energy signatures of a lightsaber battle nearby, figuring that if his side loses at least he can blast the winner with the ventral cannons before taking off.
And yet, I strongly suspect the next movie will *not* begin with "Oh, yeah, Kylo Ren died when the planet exploded because we couldn't find him, here is Bob Ren the new dark Jedi."
The worst thing is, despite all this I still really liked the movie. It just makes *no sense*, even for a Star Wars movie.
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(I mean, initially I thought attached to his lightsaber, but he's probably really attached to that thing. Zero chance he does his own laundry, mind.)
This doesn't mean there was time to get there and rescue him, but it does fuel my happy little "and this is how the Damage Control company would work in the Star Wars universe" head-canon, so there's that. :)
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Well, okay - just a speech, but...
'mentions there's no Republic navy to call on for reinforcements'
Nrr... with Hyperspace working the way it is in this movie, range isn't an issue, just deployment, and you bet "Firing on allied planets" would get their attention, nevermind the whole blowing up (New?) Republic planets thing... yeah, alright. So they hit major infrastructure and fleet resources in that shot. Still... only five?
'And NOBODY NOTICED THEM EATING THE FIRST STAR?'
We just happened to see them tapping out this star - it could have been used plenty prior to this engagement. The storage system must be pretty dense.
'You know who we see using those in the first 6 movies?'
Snorkel-Spy in Ep IV...
'a bunch of spies in a bar pull out their cellphones and deliver interstellar FTL messages'
I'm stretching here, but possibly relayed to a central comm hub that then compresses the most vital distilled intel and squirts it forward from there to a FTL comm relay someplace near-ish in-system. The strike force was already in-system and just waiting for orders or were commandeered when rich intel gave them a target.
I'm guessing it's a bandwidth issue and not a comm console issue; most of the displays are hand-held, and the comms are at least yacht-portable.
'And then Leia can watch something happening in another system in real time, and she can call up Captain Goodhair the fighter pilot who is in hyperspace and do two-way communications with a stuntfighter in the middle of a dogfight. Why?'
Yeah, I got nothing. Maybe she got a really good plan or knows the owner of the local FTL Telecom company?
'See also: The Klingon Homeworld is now canonically farther from the Earth than Mars' closest approach, but closer to the Earth than Jupiter's.'
I'll Vader!No that.
'Then why did they only have one Star Destroyer?'
Space is big. Ren and Commander Hair only have so many resources at their disposal, along with the Starkiller Base. Maybe they underbid their requisitions? Empire's a *lot* of space to control, even a piece of it.
'Bonus one for you. Kylo Ren is lying bleeding in a forest, right next to a collapsing cliff, on a planet that will *in the next two minutes* explode. General Hitlerface receives orders to get in a shuttle, leave the base, pick up Ren, and return to the Supreme Leader.'
Yeah, time isn't exactly consistent there. Han says they're a half-hour out, the main weapon is about to fire in twenty, they fuck around for over a half-hour while it's charging... yeahno, I'm not paying attention to their timescales.
'How does he even *find* Ren before the planet blows up?'
I'm going with Torrain's theory of Ren having his own guard that watches him with the eye of a Sargeant-Major. Lets him have his tantrums, cleans up his messes, tracks his every move, lets him learn from his mistakes, picks him up when the planet he's on is about to blow...
'The worst thing is, despite all this I still really liked the movie. It just makes *no sense*, even for a Star Wars movie.'
Oh crikey, tell me about it. I'm arguing these points mostly to keep the feeling going, to sort what I saw out, and revel in the novelty of having this experience of a New And Decent Star Wars film in my lifetime as an adult. The problems will... well, be dealt with by the books I suspect. Possibly by some throwaway lines in the upcoming movies.
I suspect Rogue Squadron will help establish the role of the Republic and Resistance and the First Order in the Galaxy.
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Snorkel-Spy in Ep IV...
You mean the guy ON TATOOINE who spots the droids who are wanted fugitives ON TATOOINE and calls the Star Destroyer in orbit AROUND TATOOINE to turn them in to the Storm Troopers who are already ON TATOOINE?
I don't think he's a credible case for FTL cellphone.
(If you mean someone else, I don't recall. The Probe Droids in Empire send back data, but there's no sign that it's any more FTL than hyperspace travel and it's definitely not two-way realtime like the ones I was mentioning.)
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Han says they're a half-hour out, the main weapon is about to fire in twenty, they fuck around for over a half-hour while it's charging... yeahno, I'm not paying attention to their timescales.
The problem isn't that YOU'RE not paying attention to them, it's that JJ Abrams *was* paying attention to them... and made sure to specify all those details. All those clearly wrong, clearly impossible, clearly stupid details.
Because that's what he does EVERY TIME.
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