but what does it all MEEEEEEN
Just to note, I hate how busy my Fridays and Saturdays tend to be. I miss all the SPN flurries around here. *sadface*
BUT I've finallly perused the few ep reactions on my flist, and rather than leave ridiculously long comments on their pages (blacklid and fannishliss, I'm looking at you. AND your comment replies, b. Why you stir up these thinky-thoughts, whyyy?), I thought I'd exercise judgement and actually make an entry of my own.
On the subject of angelpowers, dimensions and pocket realities:
I'm interested in all the theories on how this all works floating around out there (and it all becomes pretty curly in my own head), but with much respect for all the thinkythoughting and flailing going on, I think it's worth noting that that's all they are: theories. Show does not give us enough information to determine what's empirically "real" and what's "not" in Show. Speaking as an artist, I can tell you, that line is a whole lot blurrier than we tend to be comfortable with; seriously, try defining that in our own world sometime. Yesterday I had a very interesting argument with a coworker about whether the sky was blue. He was trying to be smartass and say it only appears blue, and it ended when I put it to him, "So go ahead and explain the difference between what blue IS and what blue LOOKS LIKE." (Piece of advice: don't get into a smartass argument with an artist about colours. Or at least not *this* artist, cos I am mean to boot.)
On that, though, I am far from convinced that angels have enough juice to just go around willy-nilly creating realities. Anna's whole grace was ripped out and exploded and made a TREE. Not even a Magic Faraway Tree. Just a big ol' tree. Granted, I'm doing the same thing as everyone else, and hand-picking details in favour of my own theory, and who knows what measure of creation goes into a 100 year-old oak, and how much goes into a pocket reality, anyway? What does "pure creation" mean, even supposing it's an accurate description of what happened and not just the closest the writer/character could get to expressing it at the time? Keeping in mind that the oak did not come out of "nowhere"; it blossomed in a pre-existing world, with pre-existing materials and DNA blue-prints for oaks. Maybe the grace bullseyed an acorn. Who knows? So we're back to the same problem: insufficient data.
My own feeling is more that angels are able to access and manipulate already-existing (ie, "real"...ish) dimensions. It makes sense to me that the creator creates; the created (including angels) only interact with it, which is in turn limited by what their created states allow them to access, legitimately or not. (This is an entire meta that I've never got around to writing; one day, I hope.)
On the subject of real!bizarroworld vs real!world:
Meanwhile, I'm a little dismayed there's a suggestion that Show's real!world is meant to be a 1:1 correlation with OUR real!world. Really? I mean, really? There are some of us in fandom who still can't tell, at this point, when Show is just letting loose and having some fun? Because I think that's one of their favourite things. And Ben especially obviously loves playing around with us, with them, with the whole construct.
But if it isn't clear so far, I should confess that I have a fairly simple view of Show, in that I don't expect its internal logic to always hold in the face of them just doing what the hell they really want to do. One of the things that make it so compelling, and so strong, in my opinion anyway, is that it is an excellently balanced construct, rather like a body. Its stability and structure comes from a very solid, very simple thematic endoskeleton, rather than a rigid exoskeleton of detailed system logic or philosophy, and the flesh of the story is lean and flexible and able to take full advantage of the skeleton's articulation, and the music it's listening to is wild and loose and driving and intoxicating. Show can put its body-structure in the way of harm, take a few hits, heal, and dance on better than ever. With a great ass.
... Look, just ... all I'm saying is SHOW IS NOT A BEETLE, people. Okay?
On the purposes of the boys' roadtrip through heaven:
(fannishliss, leaning more toward the angel instaworld notion, mentions: "the cruelty and coldness of the Memorex heaven. It makes it almost certain that Zack did manipulate the memories that Sam re-experienced in Dark Side of the Moon in order to alienate Dean....")
I wanted to weigh in on this point particularly, and couldn't decide where to put it, but I'm here now and so:
I don't know what authority Zach has to manipulate heaven, any more than I would begin to know how to measure what angels can and cannot create, so it is possible he was orchestrating the trip to drive a wedge between them. But if anyone was manipulating what they ultimately saw and did in heaven, it was God. While I don't personally subscribe to the idea that Zach was manipulating rather than chasing them, I also don't think the two are mutually exclusive; Zach manipulates in the way he was inclined/allowed to, without ever being the wiser.
That trip was not for Dean at all; it was for Sam. For as long as they were together, in both their "scenes", Sam saw exactly what he needed to see to finally understand who Dean is and what he needs. Watching the penny drop was a little bit like watching his dawning realization in Route 666 of something he'd never witnessed in his brother before, only much, much deeper. This was God's answer to Dean's prayer at the end of Valentine. By my tally, Dean has prayed to God twice: once in Monster at the End of this Book, and in Valentine. The rest of the time, he was consciously attempting to communicate with angels.
The first time, in Monster, Dean assumed that praying automatically meant praying to God (and in that instance, Castiel answered and gave Dean what he needed, although you could also argue, and I do, that God superintended that); the second being when he couldn't turn to the angels or anyone else. And I say that God answered him both times, giving him exactly what he needed each time, just not what he expected. In this case, it was a Sammy who truly, finally understood his brother, and was thus primed and committed to help him exactly the way he needed help. Help being, of course, the exact thing Dean had prayed for. Other than giving up on the idea of getting God to fix the apocalypse (which, again, was likely God's intention), the episode did not change Dean in any way, but it changed Sam in a subtle, fundamental way. It was the last step in making him a full peer in the relationship.
This ... I can't even start to get into the details of creator/creation relationship here (again, that elusive meta, one day), but whatever scheming and scrabbling the agents of heaven and humanity were doing in Dark Side, I will contend to the end of Show that this was the purpose of this episode - conscious, plotted purpose, in Show, of God. (This also ties to something blacklid said: "I also like how they assumed that God doesn't traverse universes. Oh. Sam. Assume that he does... that's clue number one that we should be looking harder!")
NEWAY.
On my opinion of the episode generally:
I liked it. It was fun and cracky and more self-poke-y than meta-y and Ben is probably my favourite writer on Show. It gave us all a break from soulessness, soulflambéness, and general wtfness. It's one more layer in some fic ideas that have been quietly maturing in the background and are unlikely to ever amount to anything much, but are fun to tinker with.
... That said, can we PLEASE get ON with things, now?
... I'm going to regret I said that, aren't I?
BUT I've finallly perused the few ep reactions on my flist, and rather than leave ridiculously long comments on their pages (blacklid and fannishliss, I'm looking at you. AND your comment replies, b. Why you stir up these thinky-thoughts, whyyy?), I thought I'd exercise judgement and actually make an entry of my own.
On the subject of angelpowers, dimensions and pocket realities:
I'm interested in all the theories on how this all works floating around out there (and it all becomes pretty curly in my own head), but with much respect for all the thinkythoughting and flailing going on, I think it's worth noting that that's all they are: theories. Show does not give us enough information to determine what's empirically "real" and what's "not" in Show. Speaking as an artist, I can tell you, that line is a whole lot blurrier than we tend to be comfortable with; seriously, try defining that in our own world sometime. Yesterday I had a very interesting argument with a coworker about whether the sky was blue. He was trying to be smartass and say it only appears blue, and it ended when I put it to him, "So go ahead and explain the difference between what blue IS and what blue LOOKS LIKE." (Piece of advice: don't get into a smartass argument with an artist about colours. Or at least not *this* artist, cos I am mean to boot.)
On that, though, I am far from convinced that angels have enough juice to just go around willy-nilly creating realities. Anna's whole grace was ripped out and exploded and made a TREE. Not even a Magic Faraway Tree. Just a big ol' tree. Granted, I'm doing the same thing as everyone else, and hand-picking details in favour of my own theory, and who knows what measure of creation goes into a 100 year-old oak, and how much goes into a pocket reality, anyway? What does "pure creation" mean, even supposing it's an accurate description of what happened and not just the closest the writer/character could get to expressing it at the time? Keeping in mind that the oak did not come out of "nowhere"; it blossomed in a pre-existing world, with pre-existing materials and DNA blue-prints for oaks. Maybe the grace bullseyed an acorn. Who knows? So we're back to the same problem: insufficient data.
My own feeling is more that angels are able to access and manipulate already-existing (ie, "real"...ish) dimensions. It makes sense to me that the creator creates; the created (including angels) only interact with it, which is in turn limited by what their created states allow them to access, legitimately or not. (This is an entire meta that I've never got around to writing; one day, I hope.)
On the subject of real!bizarroworld vs real!world:
Meanwhile, I'm a little dismayed there's a suggestion that Show's real!world is meant to be a 1:1 correlation with OUR real!world. Really? I mean, really? There are some of us in fandom who still can't tell, at this point, when Show is just letting loose and having some fun? Because I think that's one of their favourite things. And Ben especially obviously loves playing around with us, with them, with the whole construct.
But if it isn't clear so far, I should confess that I have a fairly simple view of Show, in that I don't expect its internal logic to always hold in the face of them just doing what the hell they really want to do. One of the things that make it so compelling, and so strong, in my opinion anyway, is that it is an excellently balanced construct, rather like a body. Its stability and structure comes from a very solid, very simple thematic endoskeleton, rather than a rigid exoskeleton of detailed system logic or philosophy, and the flesh of the story is lean and flexible and able to take full advantage of the skeleton's articulation, and the music it's listening to is wild and loose and driving and intoxicating. Show can put its body-structure in the way of harm, take a few hits, heal, and dance on better than ever. With a great ass.
... Look, just ... all I'm saying is SHOW IS NOT A BEETLE, people. Okay?
On the purposes of the boys' roadtrip through heaven:
(fannishliss, leaning more toward the angel instaworld notion, mentions: "the cruelty and coldness of the Memorex heaven. It makes it almost certain that Zack did manipulate the memories that Sam re-experienced in Dark Side of the Moon in order to alienate Dean....")
I wanted to weigh in on this point particularly, and couldn't decide where to put it, but I'm here now and so:
I don't know what authority Zach has to manipulate heaven, any more than I would begin to know how to measure what angels can and cannot create, so it is possible he was orchestrating the trip to drive a wedge between them. But if anyone was manipulating what they ultimately saw and did in heaven, it was God. While I don't personally subscribe to the idea that Zach was manipulating rather than chasing them, I also don't think the two are mutually exclusive; Zach manipulates in the way he was inclined/allowed to, without ever being the wiser.
That trip was not for Dean at all; it was for Sam. For as long as they were together, in both their "scenes", Sam saw exactly what he needed to see to finally understand who Dean is and what he needs. Watching the penny drop was a little bit like watching his dawning realization in Route 666 of something he'd never witnessed in his brother before, only much, much deeper. This was God's answer to Dean's prayer at the end of Valentine. By my tally, Dean has prayed to God twice: once in Monster at the End of this Book, and in Valentine. The rest of the time, he was consciously attempting to communicate with angels.
The first time, in Monster, Dean assumed that praying automatically meant praying to God (and in that instance, Castiel answered and gave Dean what he needed, although you could also argue, and I do, that God superintended that); the second being when he couldn't turn to the angels or anyone else. And I say that God answered him both times, giving him exactly what he needed each time, just not what he expected. In this case, it was a Sammy who truly, finally understood his brother, and was thus primed and committed to help him exactly the way he needed help. Help being, of course, the exact thing Dean had prayed for. Other than giving up on the idea of getting God to fix the apocalypse (which, again, was likely God's intention), the episode did not change Dean in any way, but it changed Sam in a subtle, fundamental way. It was the last step in making him a full peer in the relationship.
This ... I can't even start to get into the details of creator/creation relationship here (again, that elusive meta, one day), but whatever scheming and scrabbling the agents of heaven and humanity were doing in Dark Side, I will contend to the end of Show that this was the purpose of this episode - conscious, plotted purpose, in Show, of God. (This also ties to something blacklid said: "I also like how they assumed that God doesn't traverse universes. Oh. Sam. Assume that he does... that's clue number one that we should be looking harder!")
NEWAY.
On my opinion of the episode generally:
I liked it. It was fun and cracky and more self-poke-y than meta-y and Ben is probably my favourite writer on Show. It gave us all a break from soulessness, soulflambéness, and general wtfness. It's one more layer in some fic ideas that have been quietly maturing in the background and are unlikely to ever amount to anything much, but are fun to tinker with.
... That said, can we PLEASE get ON with things, now?
... I'm going to regret I said that, aren't I?